M
matt22
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Hey, I was just wondering what you all thought about the C7 assault rifle. Do you think we need to replace it altogether, or will the C7A2 suffice?
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Well, I'm no infanteer, and don't use the weapon on a day-to-day basis, but why fix what isn't broken? I would think there's alot of other kit out there that would need attention first, because it is older and less reliable, etc., before the C7.
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The SAS, SBS and Patrol troop 3 Commando Bde RM all use the Canadian C7A2 as our version of the M-16 family. We like it.
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There's a good article on how the C7 family preformed in Afghanistan at http://www.sfu.ca/casr/index.htm, I think somebody else on the forum posted the site. Overall the weapon did very well with the current mods, just needs some tweaking. The IDF love their M16 variants. The only thing I don't like is the Elcan site I prefer the old iron sites.
I'm not sure I understand the need to move to a shorter barrel length.
In my admittedly limited understanding of ballistics it would seem to me that your typical 5.56 round performs much better with a full-length barrel in terms of developing critical velocity and accuracy.
Hasn't the M4/C8's performance out past 200 metres been lamented frequently since the recent unpleasantness in the Middle East?
I know it's fashionable to carry "shorty" versions of assault rifles, but I don't know why we want to give up ft/lbs of muzzle energy and accuracy in order to make the rifle somewhat more useable in urban areas.
I know alot of combat has been going on in urban areas in the last few conflicts but let's not forget the lessons of Tora Bora either - sometimes you need to reach out and touch someone with section weapons out to 500 metres and I don't believe the shorty barrel is the answer.
As a veteran Yank E-6 said, "What we needed in those hills was a good old-fashioned battle rifle."
Isn't a shorty M16 going the other way?
Just my 0.02.
Mr. Ted
In my admittedly limited understanding of ballistics it would seem to me that your typical 5.56 round performs much better with a full-length barrel in terms of developing critical velocity and accuracy.
Hasn't the M4/C8's performance out past 200 metres been lamented frequently since the recent unpleasantness in the Middle East?
I know it's fashionable to carry "shorty" versions of assault rifles, but I don't know why we want to give up ft/lbs of muzzle energy and accuracy in order to make the rifle somewhat more useable in urban areas.
I know alot of combat has been going on in urban areas in the last few conflicts but let's not forget the lessons of Tora Bora either - sometimes you need to reach out and touch someone with section weapons out to 500 metres and I don't believe the shorty barrel is the answer.
As a veteran Yank E-6 said, "What we needed in those hills was a good old-fashioned battle rifle."
Isn't a shorty M16 going the other way?
Just my 0.02.
Mr. Ted
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When I was in the reserves for one year with the Hastp's . I had a chance to use this weapon . I thought that it was excellent it hardly jammed on me and was easy to maintain . The only complaint that I had was the optic sight on it at the time I found in the rain it had a nasty habit of fogging up witch made seeing the target difficult at times . Maby they have corrected this by now that was almost ten years ago . I think the Iron sight was much better . Just my two sense worth . P.S I also liked the iron sight because during rifle PT it was lighter LOL ;D
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A quote from an article about the shorty used in Afghanistan... May change your mind on the long barrel
"Although the long barrel offers excellent ballistic performance for the 5.56mm SS109 round, the high performance of today's ammunition allows for comparable performance from shorter barrels which allow the soldier to manoeuvre more easily.
Addressing the issue of the long barrel, B Coy became the first infantry company in Canada to be issued a new 16inch (40cm) heavy barrel. Arriving simply as an upper receiver, it was married-up with the standard C7A2 lower receiver. The now shorter weapon was well received by soldiers, proving to be a great asset when negotiating the tight corridors of Kabul's streets. The ballistic performance of the shorter barrel equalled the original barrel on the range."
"Although the long barrel offers excellent ballistic performance for the 5.56mm SS109 round, the high performance of today's ammunition allows for comparable performance from shorter barrels which allow the soldier to manoeuvre more easily.
Addressing the issue of the long barrel, B Coy became the first infantry company in Canada to be issued a new 16inch (40cm) heavy barrel. Arriving simply as an upper receiver, it was married-up with the standard C7A2 lower receiver. The now shorter weapon was well received by soldiers, proving to be a great asset when negotiating the tight corridors of Kabul's streets. The ballistic performance of the shorter barrel equalled the original barrel on the range."
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Once again for the learning impaired...
RUAG GP-90 60gr
20" 16" 14.5" 20 to 16" Avg Loss 20 to 14.5" AVGLoss
3043 2870 2804 156.2 252.6
3048 2877 2782
3022 2841 2786 14.5 to 16" AVG Gain
3028 2901 2790 96.4
3023 2894 2739
AVG FPS AVG FPS AVG FPS
3032.8 2876.6 2780.2
STD DEV STD DEV STD DEV
11.94571053 23.50106381 24.47856205
C77 IVI
20" 16" 14.5" 20 to 16" Avg Loss 20 to 14.5" AVGLoss
3160 3013 2926 143.2 223
3170 3013 2910
3123 3013 2955 14.5 to 16" AVG Gain
3156 3011 2927 79.8
3154 2997 2930
AVG FPS AVG FPS AVG FPS
3152.6 3009.4 2929.6
STD DEV STD DEV STD DEV
17.65785944 6.985699679 16.19567844
77gr Nolser BTHP Blackhills NATO Pressure
20" 16" 14.5" 20 to 16" Avg Loss 20 to 14.5" AVGLoss
2842 2765 2586 76.6 252.4
2849 2771 2595
2823 2781 2578 14.5 to 16" AVG Gain
2859 2772 2599 175.8
2850 2751 2603
AVG FPS AVG FPS AVG FPS
2844.6 2768 2592.2
STD DEV STD DEV STD DEV
13.50185172 11.09053651 10.13410085
77gr HSM
20" 16" 14.5" 20 to 16" Avg Loss 20 to 14.5" AVGLoss
2651 2533 2452 123.2 213.6
2670 2565 2464
2680 2568 2432 14.5 to 16" AVG Gain
2686 2534 2497 90.4
2684 2555 2458
AVG FPS AVG FPS AVG FPS
2674.2 2551 2460.6
STD DEV STD DEV STD DEV
14.35966573 16.68831927 23.63895091
*This data was assembled off an Oehler Chronograph for MV's and G1 drag co-eff w/ .304BC for
the C77rd using the MCTRAJ4 program.
I am several other PPCLI members shot the test strings.
C77/M855/SS109 type ammuntion fragments to aprox 2500fps with ideal frag at 2700fps or greater.
The longer heavier 77gr BTHP round frag down to aprox 2200fps.
So with the 16" C8SFW using the Mk262 Mod1 77gr ammuntion you effectively gain rnage on the C7A1/A2 and the C77 round -- even using the C77 round little is lost - and the 4" barrel reduction is extremely necessary in todays day and age
- In fact for some duties the 10.3" C8CQB is more useful despite the ameimic performace of C77 at that velocity.
RUAG GP-90 60gr
20" 16" 14.5" 20 to 16" Avg Loss 20 to 14.5" AVGLoss
3043 2870 2804 156.2 252.6
3048 2877 2782
3022 2841 2786 14.5 to 16" AVG Gain
3028 2901 2790 96.4
3023 2894 2739
AVG FPS AVG FPS AVG FPS
3032.8 2876.6 2780.2
STD DEV STD DEV STD DEV
11.94571053 23.50106381 24.47856205
C77 IVI
20" 16" 14.5" 20 to 16" Avg Loss 20 to 14.5" AVGLoss
3160 3013 2926 143.2 223
3170 3013 2910
3123 3013 2955 14.5 to 16" AVG Gain
3156 3011 2927 79.8
3154 2997 2930
AVG FPS AVG FPS AVG FPS
3152.6 3009.4 2929.6
STD DEV STD DEV STD DEV
17.65785944 6.985699679 16.19567844
77gr Nolser BTHP Blackhills NATO Pressure
20" 16" 14.5" 20 to 16" Avg Loss 20 to 14.5" AVGLoss
2842 2765 2586 76.6 252.4
2849 2771 2595
2823 2781 2578 14.5 to 16" AVG Gain
2859 2772 2599 175.8
2850 2751 2603
AVG FPS AVG FPS AVG FPS
2844.6 2768 2592.2
STD DEV STD DEV STD DEV
13.50185172 11.09053651 10.13410085
77gr HSM
20" 16" 14.5" 20 to 16" Avg Loss 20 to 14.5" AVGLoss
2651 2533 2452 123.2 213.6
2670 2565 2464
2680 2568 2432 14.5 to 16" AVG Gain
2686 2534 2497 90.4
2684 2555 2458
AVG FPS AVG FPS AVG FPS
2674.2 2551 2460.6
STD DEV STD DEV STD DEV
14.35966573 16.68831927 23.63895091
*This data was assembled off an Oehler Chronograph for MV's and G1 drag co-eff w/ .304BC for
the C77rd using the MCTRAJ4 program.
I am several other PPCLI members shot the test strings.
C77/M855/SS109 type ammuntion fragments to aprox 2500fps with ideal frag at 2700fps or greater.
The longer heavier 77gr BTHP round frag down to aprox 2200fps.
So with the 16" C8SFW using the Mk262 Mod1 77gr ammuntion you effectively gain rnage on the C7A1/A2 and the C77 round -- even using the C77 round little is lost - and the 4" barrel reduction is extremely necessary in todays day and age
- In fact for some duties the 10.3" C8CQB is more useful despite the ameimic performace of C77 at that velocity.
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How the devil does this topic keep popping up every 3 days? It's in the FAQ! Do a search first!
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