BFT for CIC Officers.

[dogger1936]

Dogger -- Re: the tac vest being used to carry things that kill people, then by your argument Padres shouldn't carry that either.

As for the weapon, ever thought he may have been carrying the hard rubber fake?

The OP went out and did the BFT to help strengthen his attachment to his affiliated Reg F unit.  I suspect to participate, said unit would have had to make sure he was properly kitted out and the appropriate waivers were signed.  You're posting as if he just showed up and said, "I'm gonna go do the BFT with you guys, kay?"  Probably nowhere close the what actually transpired.

Strike- Padres can deploy to combat zones; Cadet officers cannot. Padres can be attached to untis that deploy and train to fight. CIC cannot. 

-He didnt mention a rubber rifle.

- He didnt say it was cleared just that he arranged it with his affiliated unit. I HOPE he was approved to do this; otherwise it brings a lot of questions into play as I staed above.

Strike if you assume I`m just the type of guy who looks at the negative in things your mistaken. Building ties with an affiliated unti is excellent and can really aid a cadet corp. Its something I truly encourage. HOWEVER I know enough about the program to know that if this wasnt waivered to heck and back there could be some serious issues.

I`d love to see CIC doing BFT and basic etc. However the fact is it isnt a requirement; its a youth program. And if this young keen CIC officer got injured or was out carrying a C7 around and no one inside his regional command knew...there could be a giant shitstorm if he was injured.

Maybe the original poster can clarify things a little. However I ask instead of listening to the original poster; you young CIC officers should ask for direction if you plan on heading off to regiment x to fall into a BFT.

Edit to add: Padres wear Tacvests when deployed if required. As they need to be able to protect themselves.  CIC will never deploy or train to defend against attack or to kill. So no my argument would not include padres.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I don't understand what a TacVest or even a C7 for that matter has anything to do with insurance.  Yes, the TacVest is made to carry weapons, but if it doesn't what's the big deal?  Yes the C7 can fire rounds, but if it doesn't contain a bolt, it can't. We fly cadets every year in a F-18 (that can drop bombs, fire missiles and even shoot a 20mm gun) and they have to wear a vest that can carry a 9mm and 2 mags (essentially our TacVest if we buy the farm and eject over bad guy land), sitting on an ejection seat.  Oh the horror.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Emphasis mine.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. As a CIC Officer, I am expected to lead my cadets. Physical fitness is one of the aims of the cadet program. How can I expect them to aim for high physical fitness if I won't do the same myself? Leadership by example is often important, and never moreso than when you are dealing with 12-18 year olds (particularly given that they can just up and leave if they don't like it).

Furthermore, as an officer in the CF, I am a representative of the CF wherever I am in uniform. This is particularly important in rural areas, where we are often the only representatives of the CF for quite a distance. If I am not in decent shape, I give a bad look to CF members everywhere. When we put on the uniform, Joe Public doesn't generally know the difference between me and an RegF mbr with 20 years experience and a few tours under their belt.

Also, I have encountered members who were not physically fit enough to do their jobs. The people like this in our side of the house are a prime example of why physical fitness testing to some standard (even if lower than the MPFS, though that should be achievable outside of those with MELs) should be occurring for us (I know these people exist in other sub-components/components but they already have this testing in place - doing something about it is up to their superiors IAW DAODs 5023-2 & 5019-4).

You're right. You lead by example and these young kids see you and emulate you.  In theory it works, in practice if you held CIC officers to a fitness standard MANY would either not pass it or would quit.  There are some very physically fit CIC types and also some very out of shape ones. If you turfed the ones who couldn't pass fitness tests the cadet movement would grind to a halt, regiments would fold due to lack of leadership. Kids would leave.  It's just not something that's practical to enforce.

It's like the reserves in a way. In theory the CDS should be able to say regiments #1,2,3 and 5 pack your gear you're deploying.  You might get a section of guys, or maybe a couple of sections, but a lot of people are gonna say 'ya right, good luck with that'.
People who aren't physically fit, people who have tons of administrative issues and people who just wanna work 4 weeknights a month.

If I was running a BFT and a CIC officer wanted to jump in and do it I'd let him or her. I'd give them a tacvest, helmet and rifle sans bolt and magazines and wish them luck. I'd also use common sense and if the CIC was clearly out of shape I would refuse them and have them do some work up training first, the same as I did for a clerk at my unit who's out of shape and fell out of a 400 meter walk.  Had him do some training on his own, sign off that he did training on his own then he was allowed to do the BFT, which he passed.

My concern for him was that with zero work up training if he thundered in on the BFT he'd turn around and try and get monetary compensation/work at the regiment for getting injured on the BFT with no work up.  It's a pretty shady area from what i can tell.

 

[RussBar119]

Dogger,

To answer your questions. I obtained written permission from my CO and the CO of the E&K. I signed a liability waiver as did ALL personal who participated. I carried a rubber c-7. I was issued the same equipment because if I had asked for special permission that would indicate that I wanted to be different, not gonna earn respect that way.

Any more questions please feel free to PM me.

Cheers.

Edit: Dogger is right, don't just "hop in" secure permission through the appropriate channels.
I never meant for this topic to become a "are cic deployable" I meant it to encourage physical fitness and standards, not to troll the pres or regs.

 

[Strike]

Edit to add: Padres wear Tacvests when deployed if required. As they need to be able to protect themselves.  CIC will never deploy or train to defend against attack or to kill. So no my argument would not include padres.

Huh?  How does a Tac Vest provide protection for a Padre, other than carrying First Aid equipment?

 

[MedCorps]

The Bioscience Officers will tell you the proper wearing of the tac vest is very important if you get in a large IED strike.  Something about providing an extra layer to aid in keeping the body armour on you during the first milliseconds of the blast. 

The tac vest can also carry things like water, snacks, flashlight, GPS, book of worship, etc for the padre.

Food for thought.

MC

 

[formercadet1029]

Interesting thread.

I would suspect part of the lack of a fitness requirement for the CIC basically falls back on the the ideology that many CIC officers aren't and won't ever be soldiers. Many join the CIC as a result of their own children being involved in the cadet program, they want to be involved with that on some higher level. In my opinion, anyone showing an interest at the level to become an officer at an active cadet corps should be encouraged at every level because people seem to come in and out of this system frequently. Acquiring a complete staff of competent people that will show up every week in this day and age is nothing short of a miracle. These people only get paid for 2 days a month when you look at it realistically, they really have to want to be there considering all the extra time that goes into it without any financial gain. It has to be about the kids first, or they won't last. There is a small epidemic of CIC officers that appear to be trying to make a full-time career in the CIC, that's a whole separate discussion for sure.

So saying all of that, perhaps the idea of discouraging anyone to join the CIC on any level, for any reason, may just be something they are trying to avoid at all costs just to ensure a healthy pulse in the system itself.

People in the reg force, class A or B, have a very different type of Job commitment than anyone in the CIC ever would.  CIC officers typically have jobs and careers in the civilian world.

Not apples to apples on any level.

 

[dogger1936]

I don't understand what a TacVest or even a C7 for that matter has anything to do with insurance.  Yes, the TacVest is made to carry weapons, but if it doesn't what's the big deal?  Yes the C7 can fire rounds, but if it doesn't contain a bolt, it can't. We fly cadets every year in a F-18 (that can drop bombs, fire missiles and even shoot a 20mm gun) and they have to wear a vest that can carry a 9mm and 2 mags (essentially our TacVest if we buy the farm and eject over bad guy land), sitting on an ejection seat.  Oh the horror.

Believe me I would love to have the "child soldiers" we once had. IE children firing FN all the time firing howitzers as they did a decade or so ago. Fact is Max that isnt going to happen.

The program is so politically correct that it has removed the rank Private/soldat as it may offend someone; or made cadets sound like child soldiers. Waivers etc are not the exception its the norm to do Anything in the program.

I'd gladly have children doing section attacks; alas the program has moved away from the CF over the past few years IRT implimenting of new courses etc.

Russ I'm glad to hear everything was approved. And I'm excited to hear such a great raport being built between you and a regiment. Thats a awesome help for your corp. BZ.

 

[gwp]

Contrary to what I keep hearing 90% of CIC officers I've met have zero military experience outside of CIC courses. Many are mom and dad's; uni students, school principles; CEO's of civilian companies etc.

Actually 45% of the COATS reserve subcomponent and CIC Branch have former Reg F or P Res Service. 

Furthermore, most members of the CF are mom's and dads, were or are university students, and have had civilian occupations. 

Will they ever deploy as a CIC? No. Will they ever understand what soldiering is? No.

COATS personnel may be deployed under specific circumstances with specific approvals if they have the skills required for what is understandably support roles.

To compare regular and reserve soldiers to CIC is akin to comparing the Salvation army to the knights templars. While connections can be made; there is very little in common.

A member of the CF is a member  of the CF is a member of the CF.  They all come from the same Canadian society and all have the same desire to serve their country in accordance with their vocation.

 

[dogger1936]

Actually 45% of the COATS reserve subcomponent and CIC Branch have former Reg F or P Res Service. 

Furthermore, most members of the CF are mom's and dads, were or are university students, and have had civilian occupations. 

COATS personnel may be deployed under specific circumstances with specific approvals if they have the skills required for what is understandably support roles.

A member of the CF is a member  of the CF is a member of the CF.  They all come from the same Canadian society and all have the same desire to serve their country in accordance with their vocation.

55% have no other CF experience. So what?

Please do tell me about CIC deployments. Do you mean to say members of the police force who donate their time to a youth organistaion; may deploy to foreign countries as part of the police force? Or for a trip in the way back when machine the Wavy Navy or something?

CF soldiers have a very differnt vocation than CIC officers. CIC officers are there to support a DND funded youth program; soldiers are employed to kill people. While comparrisions can be made on the parade square thats where the similarities stop.

There is no need for stringent CIC fitness testing. Being a percentage guy I'm certain you can desertain the percent who would not pass. And how many would be left to take care of the youth program.

Heading out on a BFT (approved of course) is a great way to build ties to regiments. That will aide the corp's with procurement of equipment and support IRT volunteers. Other than that having CIC officers do BFT's would be pointless. Hence why it isnt required now or will ever be.

 

[Scott]

Please do tell me about CIC deployments. Do you mean to say members of the police force who donate their time to a youth organistaion; may deploy to foreign countries as part of the police force? Or for a trip in the way back when machine the Wavy Navy or something?

It's on the books, is what he means. Kinda like it's still on the books in some places that you can hitch your horse anywhere on a main street. Nobody uses it except to weakly try to bolster an argument, or to stir shit.

 

[Kalatzi]

Umm, Grimaldus - Hellooo

"It's like the reserves in a way. In theory the CDS should be able to say regiments #1,2,3 and 5 pack your gear you're deploying.  You might get a section of guys, or maybe a couple of sections, but a lot of people are gonna say 'ya right, good luck with that'.
People who aren't physically fit, people who have tons of administrative issues and people who just wanna work 4 weeknights a month."

Pot, This is Kettle, Black, Over

Way back when, even before the "Decade of Darkness", There used to be an organition called `The Militia`

I will try to phrase this in a positive manner.

These class A bumpkins used to get slotted onto all sorts of Reg Forces Ops Missions eg Cypus, Reforger etc on roughly two weeks notice

 

[Haggis]

TANGENT ALERT

9 times out of 10 when we do our BFT in the reserves guys just throw a ruck on their back and claw and bite their way through it.  Our members aren't brought in and paid to do any sort of work up training.  What happens if a Class A guy tries it and goes down with an injury.  I'd imagine CIC in the same boat.

IMO, any Reservist who just shows up and does a BFT "cold",  without workup training is a fool.  I've done it when the C of C has sprung a short notice requirement for a BFT on me  (i.e. Op CADENCE).  But, it's not the right thing to do.

It violates the entire premise of the BFT if you do it cold and are so f**ked  up the next two or three days that you can hardly walk.  The intent is to arrive at the battle fit to fight.  Not needing two or three days to recover.  But I digress.

All Class A Reservists should have either a DND 279 or LFCO 24-02 Annex A, Appendix 1 form filled out, signed and filed.  This protects them by ensuring that the physical fitness activites they are engaged in are recognized for pension purposes.  In addition, if you are engaging in activites not listed on either form, submit a memo to your chain of command requesting "permission to participate in non-standard physical fitness training activities" and identify what you are intending to do.  Once approved, you should be covered.

If a Class A Reservist is injured doing an authorized BFT, s/he is entitled to emergency medical care by the CF and Reserve Force Compensation under CBI 210.72.

If a Class A Reservist is injured doing authorized BFT workup training, PAID OR UNPAID, s/he is considered "on duty" and is eligible for Reserve Force Compensation as detailed in CANFORGEN 115/08.

TANGENT ALERT ENDS

 

[dapaterson]

If a Class A Reservist is injured doing authorized BFT workup training, PAID OR UNPAID, s/he is considered "on duty" and is eligible for Reserve Force Compensation as detailed in CANFORGEN 115/08.

A Class A Reservist on duty is entitled to pay.  Full stop.  There is no such thing as unpaid duty.  CBI 204.51 is clear that "...an officer or non-commissioned member shall be paid..."

That senior leaders refuse to pay for BFT workup training is a moral and legal failing on their part.

 

[Brasidas]

A Class A Reservist on duty is entitled to pay.  Full stop.  There is no such thing as unpaid duty.  CBI 204.51 is clear that "...an officer or non-commissioned member shall be paid..."

That senior leaders refuse to pay for BFT workup training is a moral and legal failing on their part.

Kids in university have midterms and often get worried about school. Units should and do encourage them to show up for the dates they can do so. Units can and do book BFT's on their behalf on some day other than when the majority of the unit does it, so that that member can still get the qualification. They don't have to conduct workup training on the unique schedule of the member.

If they can not make it out to workup training for the BFT, they can do it on their own time and be covered for injuries sustained while doing so. Our unit so informs the member.

 

[Haggis]

A Class A Reservist on duty is entitled to pay.  Full stop.  There is no such thing as unpaid duty.  CBI 204.51 is clear that "...an officer or non-commissioned member shall be paid..."

Agreed, but you're missing the point of CANFORGEN 115/08.  The intent is to ensure that Class A Reservists who are doing PT on their own time to meet CF requirements are covered if they are injured while doing so.

That senior leaders refuse to pay for BFT workup training is a moral and legal failing on their part.

Now that the Army Reserve has essentially done away with most (but not all) Class A fitness requirements by way of CANLANDGEN 026/11, the need to invoke the protection of CANFORGEN 115/08 and benefits of CBI 210.72 should be reduced.

 

[dogger1936]

It's on the books, is what he means. Kinda like it's still on the books in some places that you can hitch your horse anywhere on a main street. Nobody uses it except to weakly try to bolster an argument, or to stir crap.

Seen. Thought so.

Thanks.

 

[patt]

i dont get why people on here are crying about BFT workup! frig, ive seen guys including myself do 2 or 3  BFTs in a month of each other without any work up.  stop crying and be a damn soldier...

 

[Scott]

i dont get why people on here are crying about BFT workup! frig, ive seen guys including myself do 2 or 3  BFTs in a month of each other without any work up.  stop crying and be a damn soldier...

Eh? Don't know where you get that out of this thread but whatever....

Oh, wait, you were trolling there! I get it!

 

[Rogo]

Just read this all today, and not to dig it up too much but Rubber C7 or real thing. If that were ever aimed improperly or held in a direction deemed unsafe by the perceptions of any citizen even driving by...it could cause quite an issue.

I like to think that most if not all CIC (having had several cadet and staff cadet time working with them when younger) are responsible and would not point  the rubber C7 in any unsafe directions on purpose. But the point I'm making is that anyone walking by or around them won't know the difference between a rubber one, one without a bolt, or one with a bolt, a full mag and safety off.

I am curious (may have been mentioned in original post so I'll have to check) to know if this was a ruck march on a base or out in the world. Sometimes I see personnel (I assume PRes) doing ruck marches in Ottawa.


On a personal note and admin or regulation issues aside, good on you for broadening your fitness abilities by doing the BFT.