Better pay for skilled personnel one way to lure recruits to forces

[crazyleggs]

http://dgpa-dgap.mil.ca/dailysummaries/eclips.htm

Better pay for skilled personnel one way lure recruits to forces
Maybe a computer whiz seaman is worth more than a lieutenant, minister says
KEYWORDS: Bill Graham , Canadian Forces, armed forces [AND] recruit*
   Amy O'Brian, Vancouver Sun

   Defence Minister Bill Graham said Monday the government's plan to hire 5,000 new military personnel over the next five years will be a challenge because of Canada's changing ethnic makeup and the more complex skill set being demanded by the Canadian Forces.

   The federal government has committed the money to hire the new personnel, but Graham worries it will be more difficult to secure 5,000 young, enthusiastic people willing to join the forces.

   "It's going to be a challenge," Graham said Monday during a meeting with The Vancouver Sun's editorial board.

   Graham said the recruitment program is being examined and there may be changes to the salary scale to reward highly skilled new recruits.

   "In the army or the navy, you get paid on the basis of your rank," Graham said.

   "What if you need a leading seaman who's [also a computer whiz]? Maybe you should pay this person more than you're paying a lieutenant who's standing there commanding.

   "We've got to look at this in a different way. That's my view."

   Graham conceded that a change in the salary scale could be an unpopular move, but said it's necessary to attract skilled personnel.

   "That is a big cultural change for an organization like the Armed Forces. It will take a lot of soul-wrenching, but I think it will come to that," he said.

   Graham said the recruits of today need to be "combat ready," as well as capable of dealing with humanitarian issues, and often "highly specialized" because of technologically advanced equipment.

   Graham also acknowledged that Canada's growing ethnic population poses a challenge to recruitment because of traditionally low numbers of visible minorities in the forces.

   "This is a problem. I don't deny it," he said.

   "And I'm not smart enough to know [the answer]. But I sure as heck think we've got to find out how to do it or where are we going to recruit from in 15 years? Just look at the demographics of the population."

   Graham said most of the recruits he talks to say they joined the forces because of a "personal link" and said there need to be better methods of attracting people.

   "I've never met anybody who's said, 'Oh. I saw the recruiting poster and thought, Jeez that sounds like a lot of fun,' " Graham said.

   Most of the 5,000 new recruits will go to the land forces, with hopes of doubling the number of personnel the forces are able to deploy.

   Graham said there is $100 million for recruitment in this year's budget, and $150 million in next year's budget.

   "We're going to have a very aggressive recruiting program, but we're going to have to look at new ways of doing business," he said.

____________

I'm speechless...

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

You would almost think they were hiring for a Business Associate position, rather a soldier.

 

[Horse_Soldier]

Hmm, didn't we already try something similar, i.e. TASK?
IIRC it was canned because of inter-branch politics.

 

[enfield]

   "I've never met anybody who's said, 'Oh. I saw the recruiting poster and thought, Jeez that sounds like a lot of fun,' " Graham said.

That tells me:
a) Graham hangs out with people in a social class the consider military service beneath them.
b) The recruiting posters suck.

This is idiotic, and frankly, displays the lack of knowledge which our civilian Minister has of the workings and meanings of the military and why it is organized like it is. Which, really, is ok and expected. Hopefully he'll keep his mouth shut and  Gen. Hillier will set him straight. I can't believe he said that - if this is his conclusion about recruiting, there are many obvious ways to fix it before we revolutuonize the rank structure, such as changing how we recruit.

Isn't the point of the military to train 'skilled personnel' and retain them, not attract already trained personnel? Also, isn't there a shortage in the (apparently) 'dumb' trades like Combat Arms?

Sometimes, I think the CF/DND leadership should be limited in the amount of original thinking they're allowed to do. We have trouble keeping up to our allies in capability, but we insist on constantly re-inventing the wheel at the same time.

 

[Infanteer]

Isn't recruiting in the "military" sphere of civil-military relations?  It's like that article on New Zealand's arrangements between bureaucracy and government.  The Government says we want a military of "X" amount of soldiers and we'll give you Y to do it with and the Military say "OK sir, we'll do it".

It seems to me that Mr Graham is overshooting his boundaries as a civilian minister by commenting and getting involved with in-house military recruiting.

 

[Blakey]

That tells me:
a) Graham hangs out with people in a social class the consider military service beneath them.

Did you not read the line above that? The statement that you have quoted derived from the comment just above it.

Graham said most of the recruits he talks to say they joined the forces because of a "personal link" and said there need to be better methods of attracting people.

  "I've never met anybody who's said, 'Oh. I saw the recruiting poster and thought, Jeez that sounds like a lot of fun,' " Graham said.

I have no idea how you came to your first conclusion.
I do however agree with your second and his comments, hes is spot on, both on why the recruits joined, and that the posters (and what little commercials there are) suck.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

...lieutenant who's standing there commanding.

This is particularly worrying coming from the Minister.  It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how the military does business and what, in particular, junior officers do.  If his "whiz kid" will shoulder the responsibility for up to 40 soldiers in a combat or near-combat setting, then you can think of paying him/her more.  Lest you think this is officer-centric, the "whiz kid" would make more than most Senior NCOs as well...

Personally, I find the comments a bit offensive.  Then again, what do I know?  I'm just a "dumb" combat arms officer...

TR

 

[kincanucks]

Graham said most of the recruits he talks to say they joined the forces because of a "personal link" and said there need to be better methods of attracting people.

33% of applicants state that they apply to the forces because they have family in the military or know someone in the military.  That is more than any other reason given for joining.  Perhaps we should utilize that "personal link" some more.

We need 5000 soldiers not 5000 geniuses and I am sorry but the pay is pretty freaking good right now.  Perhaps we could offer a 2500 dollar signing bonus if you join the cbt arms and you have your grade 12 might cut down on the high school dropout rate.

and that the posters (and what little commercials there are) suck

Actually they are are pretty good but need to be in the public eye more.  Just like the members of the CF need to be.

And the last rambling:  Remember to get five thousand we need to attract and process 12500 applicants or 2500 more per year on top of the 11250 we need to attract and process to keep up our current NCM numbers.

 

[Whiskey_Dan]

Well not just the "personal link" cause i have never had anyone in my family serve in the CF (but has in US). Im first generation born in Canada coming from a family that fled Vietnam during the war. Im joining the CF cause I am proud to live in Canada, and proud to be Canadian
But couldn't we be more like the Americans in our recruiting and go to the more "lower class" areas and try to influence those people to enlist?
Like Kincanucks said, we need 5000 more soldiers, not geniouses.
Just my 2 cents.

Dan

 

[winchable]

Perhaps we should utilize that "personal link" some more.

Wondering if you had an idea for that or if there are ideas in the works?

I was particularly intrigued by that statement A) Because I was one of those people and B) Because I've always thought we should have a referral bonus system (The Royal Marines do and I understand it's somewhat successful) I'm not sure if we have something like that here.

For every referral a soldier makes providing they pass through their trades qualification they would get a bonus (I don't know what a reasonable sum would be, at the company I work at now we get 250$ for a successful referral)
Like I said, not sure if we have something like this and if we do, we should be pushing that.

For family links perhaps family members who are already in might be able to offer their kids a unit of choice and help ensure their application is successful(Like the British army currently does with many of their older soldiers' family relations)

 

[Spr.Earl]

People will sign up if they wish, you can't force them here in Canada.

The States is diff.,reason being is Patriotism is big down south with the Military.

The only time in Canada when  Patriotism counts is when a Hockey Game is on and thats the only time we Unite or when one of our own is killed then we are no longer news unless it's a Hockey Game.

Sorry to say!!!

 

[MdB]

The States is diff.,reason being is Patriotism is big down south with the Military.

How about the people who can't afford an education because they are too poor (and it's too damn expensive) and enroll to have and education and end up in Iraq? Don't tell me all american soldiers in Iraq are all great patriots, because it's not true. They do it, but they do it to have a better life, to get out of this messy neighborhood, of drug and criminal gangs and little jobs with no-future.

Yes, there's a heck lot more patriotism than up here. But don't tell me they join only for that. The recruiters are at the door of their high school and those seeing no means to reach college or university will be appealed by this free-schooling offer.

 

[George Wallace]

How about the people who can't afford an education because they are too poor (and it's too damn expensive) and enroll to have and education .....

Yes, there's a heck lot more patriotism than up here. But don't tell me they join only for that. The recruiters are at the door of their high school and those seeing no means to reach college or university will be appealed by this free-schooling offer.

Now you have touched on a sore point.

NDHQ just put the screws to a large number of CF Members and Retiring CF Members when they changed their 'ad hoc' Education policies in the New Year.  I would like to see a similar benefit for CF Members as offered by the US Forces.  After 28 years, I had accumulated a fairly substantial benefit, which I am now no longer entitled to.  In the US, a short term Military Service entitles one to a fairly substantial Education Benefit.  In Canada, we have no such plan, even for those long service Members.  What we have is "Thanks for coming out.....see ya!"

 

[pronto]

Now you have touched on a sore point.

NDHQ just put the screws to a large number of CF Members and Retiring CF Members when they changed their 'ad hoc' Education policies in the New Year.   I would like to see a similar benefit for CF Members as offered by the US Forces.   After 28 years, I had accumulated a fairly substantial benefit, which I am now no longer entitled to.   In the US, a short term Military Service entitles one to a fairly substantial Education Benefit.   In Canada, we have no such plan, even for those long service Members.   What we have is "Thanks for coming out.....see ya!"

Sorry, George, I am not being a hair-splitting A$$-hole here, but it was the Treasury Board Ministers (under advice from their senior bureaucrats) who changed the education policies and reimbursement processes. NDHQ was told to "suck it up" and "it was a pilot project", and "you didn't have the authority to offer it anyway". Disneyland-North is responsible for a lot of shyte, but not this one. Sounds like you got caught in the crap, I am sorry to hear. There are some (probably not great) options though. PM me if you want...

And the States' policies can change arbitrarily on them too. They have been reviewing their post-engagement benefits lately as well. The old GI-Bill days as we think of them are gone, and modern post-hitch goodies could follow.

 

[c4th]

http://dgpa-dgap.mil.ca/dailysummaries/eclips.htm

Better pay for skilled personnel one way lure recruits to forces
Maybe a computer whiz seaman is worth more than a lieutenant, minister says
KEYWORDS: Bill Graham , Canadian Forces, armed forces [AND] recruit*
   Amy O'Brian, Vancouver Sun

   Defence Minister Bill Graham said Monday the government's plan to hire 5,000 new military personnel over the next five years will be a challenge because of Canada's changing ethnic makeup and the more complex skill set being demanded by the Canadian Forces.

   The federal government has committed the money to hire the new personnel, but Graham worries it will be more difficult to secure 5,000 young, enthusiastic people willing to join the forces.

It might be difficult to keep 5,000 young, enthusiastic people in the recruiting system for upwards of a year.

My CT is 14 months and counting.  I just got word back that I'm qualified DP2B.  One would think they might need NCO's and instructors.

Alas, I'm off to Gage for DP4 in a couple of weeks.  Just for kicks.

 

[George Wallace]

I think that some sort of Education Benifit Program would make a good Recruiting Incentive.   Be it set up for pers who have completed various terms of service, with differing benefits as those terms of service increase, or for career advancement in the CF.   Make it a requirement of ten years service, with increases at twenty, twenty-five and thirty years, all towards an accredited College or University education after Honourable Discharge.   There would also be a program for serving members for accredited courses take towards their advancement in the CF.   I would prefer to see the CF rewarding promising Jnr and Snr Leadership Crse graduates with the offer of RMC and a Commission, than High School Graduates.   I see "Education" as a valuable Recruiting Tool, a promotion incentive/reward, as well as a reward for long term Service.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I agree with George Wallace.

During my career I saw education and education support programmes come and go.

I recall very well that there were correspondence course available, free, in the very early '60s.  I helped tutor some of my mates on subjects like Grade 9 Math and Grade 11 English.  I think the courses were from Ontario; they were, I remember clearly, poorly presented â “ cheap little booklets and badly written (well written, actually, for university students â “ too dense for fellows who had, barely, passed Grade 8 a few years in the past).  They were, however, fairly administered and a lot of our fellows passed, again and again, with consequential benefits to themselves, their families and the army.

Many, many years later we had a GED (I think - high school graduation equivalency, anyway) programme.  It was very good; I know that from experience because I was a volunteer tutor in Ottawa back in the mid '80s and I was pleased to help several fellows get their diplomas and then go on to study, part time, in Carleton's excellent continuing education programme.

I especially like the idea of selecting some (not all of the) really good graduates from junior leadership courses and, if necessary, upgrading their education and giving them the highest priority at RMC (some, only - we don't want to rob the army of too many of its potential senior leaders).

 

[MdB]

I think that some sort of Education Benifit Program would make a good Recruiting Incentive.   Be it set up for pers who have completed various terms of service, with differing benefits as those terms of service increase, or for career advancement in the CF.   Make it a requirement of ten years service, with increases at twenty, twenty-five and thirty years, all towards an accredited College or University education after Honourable Discharge.   There would also be a program for serving members for accredited courses take towards their advancement in the CF.   I would prefer to see the CF rewarding promising Jnr and Snr Leadership Crse graduates with the offer of RMC and a Commission, than High School Graduates.   I see "Education" as a valuable Recruiting Tool, a promotion incentive/reward, as well as a reward for long term Service.

Yeah, I agree a lot here with you. It's a matter of motivation incentive.

Well how good are these? Be it monetary or carreer or competence.


As for MND's comment:
Graham's approach is one of civil point of view. Seeing the hierarchy as purely a pay-scale... This is shameful!!

You want to completely destroy the CF, pay the computer-wiz more than the OC and you'll have the end of it. It does NOT ALL COMES DOWN TO PAY!!

But I see the CF are in direct competition with all civil trades (when there's an equal) and the private sector pay alot more. This is like that for education institutions too. And a signing bonus is a good way to attract essential qualified people.

The main incentive and advantage of the CF is BEING PART OF the CF!! heck, it's not THAT complicated. It's just that the minister will go the easy way. Instead of questionning how much big cash we could give (with the exception of JTF2 who deverse it), maybe the minister and CF top generals reform the CF to boost morale and this long lost sense of elitetism. Those little hints I have let me believe the CF readiness is one Ops preparation and only that. For example, is it normal that an infantry soldier should get to shot his personal weapon only once or twice a year? Is that enough to maintain confidence and good marksmanship? Don't think so. Maybe the point is to keep morale up and offer a good career in order to maintain the members in rather than always seek more from the street.

George, Infanteer, etc, tell me there's much to do yet and that the CF can be a lot better than they are now!! :crybaby:

 

[-rb]

But I see the CF are in direct competition with all civil trades (when there's an equal) and the private sector pay alot more. This is like that for education institutions too.

I don't really agree with this statement, to me there is(should be) no competition with a civil trade, one should want to be a soldier, airmen or seamen first and a tradesperson second. If they are joining the CF in order to learn how to fix computers, vehicles or whatever then of course, there can be much better pay on the civi side. It of course comes down to motivation and the individuals reasons for joining up though.

In regards to pay, as stated earlier in the thread, it's not too shabby right now at all...bumping up the pay for a skilled technical wizard so he's making more than the OC in my opinion is a mistake. A bonus or incentive however seems to me to be a workable solution, why couldn't they offer a bonus to be spread out over the term of their first basic engagement, just tack it on to their monthly salary in a fixed percentage every month? This way, in the new recruits opinion he is making a better wage per month and can still advance along the current DND pay scale. At the end of his first term if he's committed to the forces, he re-signs, if not, well, hopefully the terms of his contract were sufficient enough that the CF got their investment recouped in the end (maybe three years for a skilled person with a bonus incentive is not a long enough term?)

And one last point in regards to the ads, well, from someone who works in the advertising industry i'm sure they do their job...that is if they want to promote the CF as a group of peacekeepers who go overseas to hand out toys and candy and are welcomed with open arms as good ol Canadians by the locals...I realise this is public perception of the CF and a reality we face in Canadian society. That doesn't mean it's correct and does not mean the CF should play on this perception as a way to get new recruits in to the forces. I hate to say it but the ads need to be more cutting edge and willing to take a few risks, the Royal Marines commercial that was posted on here a while back comes to mind as well as the current Marines.com website. Certainly more up to date and stylised than the current format of DND advertisements and would seem to attract the type of people that the CF would want to have.

To sum up, i don't think the CF needs genius' either..i do think they need people to sign-up with the right motivation though.

cheers.

 

[garb811]

I've been trying to come up with a coherent way to say what I want to but each time I start frothing at the mouth.  So...

Isn't this what Spec Pay is supposed to do?

The HR "experts" in Ottawa have some strange ideas on how to attract and retain personnel.  It would seem to me that if it's worth giving someone a huge chunk of change to enter the trade off the street, it would also make sense that it would be worth paying them a chunk of change to re-engage as well.  Never fails to amaze me how they'll pay guys a bonus to get out, pay guys a bonus to get in, but if you show loyalty and stick around to actually allow the military to make use of your skills and knowledge you get...nada...unless you're a pilot.    Call me old fashioned but something was wrong with the last programme where a Cpl who re-enrolled and got the $20K bonus made approximately $70/month gross less than a newly promoted Sgt over the three year period, not factoring in that the Cpl probably was granted a higher IPC than basic on re-enrollment.

As for the idea of an educational benefit, I'm all for that, particularly if it were also to include a set amount of money which could be used for living expenses in addition to tuition and books.  Quite honestly it doesn't make sense to me that we retained someone who was getting a medical release to allow them to attend re-training, yet a guy who finished his 20 was out the door to fend for himself with regard to living expenses for him and his family while he tried to complete whatever educational upgrading he needed to get a fresh start in life.  I also think it should be pro-rated for length of service and applicability of your trade to civilian employment.