Benefits Cut...

[Eye In The Sky]

Lawyers fees and penalties aren't covered anymore because we live in a world of portable mortgages.  if you are in the CF, you should know better than to sign a non-portable mortgage.  There are issues with this cause people have unexpected problems(banks refusing to blend and port the mortgage when they move to a place where the housing costs are lower or higher)  They still pay the fees tp buy and sell the home, just not the fees for breaking your mortgage

So, you're saying that the CF policy should determine what type of mortgage people get? 

 

[63 Delta]

If the CF requires you to move, then they should have to cover all the expenses.

And as for portable mortgages... As stated, things become sticky if you are moving to a higher or lower market. And since so many bases vary in prices, its going to be hard for many members to port. And porting is at the discretion of the lender. You're not guaranteed to get a port.

As well, for new members, and first time home buyers, along with all the other rules and regulations they must know, you expect them to make sure they get a portable mortgage? I bought my first house in 2010. It was hard enough going through all the forms, IRP, broker, realtor's, house inspection, work, variable vs fixed, terms, open or closed. Having a portable mortgage should not be the onus of the member.

 

[armyvern]

I know I am leaving the door open for a blast of S*** from a few members here.

But, I fail to see the difference between a MSC and a military member and their spouse with civilian employment with regards to whether or not separation expenses and meals being cut is fair or not.

Should the advice " if  you are posted and your spouse doesn't want to leave their job then get out " apply to both groups here ?  If you are a MSC and posted apart, then shouldn't one make the " family sacrifice" and release ?

Some members spouses have put significant time into achieving their career goals, ( as I am sure military pers have ) only to be treated as second class citizens and forced to " be the good wife " and follow their husbands. ( or wives, whatever the case may be )  I don't see how a MSC differ in this regard and should and are asking to be  treated as "special".  Of course, the rules currently apply to both parties, but here I am hearing more arguing on this forum  from MSC who feel they should be treated differently.

I really feel for both groups in this situation.  I will be a tough decision this posting season when members are forced to chose their career or their family.  I am not choosing one side or the other, I just think the same rules should apply.

It has been addressed in this thread already.

The CF, thus Canada, benefits from the employment of a MSC twice.  Two people who are willing to go anywhere, anytime for anything.  The CF does not reap the same benefit from a member with a civilian spouse.

MSC are also not availed of the same "fall back" opportunities (or "outs" if you like to call them that) as a member with a civilian spouse.

We can't go to the padre/social worker and get a "stay" on a posting for compassionate grounds or kid's educational needs for example. 

My spouse just recd word today that he is posted to Ottawa end-Apr/beginning May. Period. Interesting that.  I am the pers in the apartment in a different location than his current or future location ... he's now posted prior to end-year.  Good thing the kids have now graduated else they'd apparently have to live on their own until the end of the school year. No "outs" for us in that respect.

Show me a military member with a civilian spouse who'd have to up and move like that without regard for the kids or their schooling. If our kids were still in grade school, they'd have no choice but to transfer schools in April - even if they were in grade 12.

MSCs are not comparable to mil/civ couples.  We are treated very differently by the system and are both expected to react to that system - anytime of year; regardless of circumstances. And, in our case we do exactly that.  This new policy negatively impacts exactly those of us who do exactly as our country requires, whenever and wherever required at the CF's direction. We, truly, have NO choice in the matter.  To be clear, it is us MSCs who do all the shitty outside of APS postings so members with civilian families do not get interrupted. Screw us.  Yet again.  This will now be the third time in 5 years one of us has been posted in the Jan-Apr time frame to fill essential positions vacated by others so that mil/civ spouse do not have to do so and interrupt their family.

If this was a mil/civ family, the mil guy would go by himself and move his family during APS. That is not an option we MSCs get.

Edit to add:  Single CF members are often posted mid-year as above so that mil/civ spouse couples do not have their family's quality of life interrupted as well. However, in the case of a single member who has a home, they have the option of proceeding unaccompanied (thus having rent covered until APS) until their home sells etc.  An MSC who are posted apart do not have that option under the "mid-year posting circumstances" as one of them is already receiving that benefit.  If their home can't sell until APS, too bad. The other half must still move to the posting location and incur financial expenses for accommodations and costs associated with the new posting until their home (that no one is now living in) is sold.  People may call this "rare" occasion, but it sure as hell is not for us!!  Yep, two members paying for accommodations in two locations while the CF covers one's rent in a third location.  You'll NEVER see that occur with a civ/mil couple.

As for the poster who indicated that careers attempts to accomodate ... you should read the entire thread.  Two MSCs, both men same rank and trade and both women same rank and trade.  Me and her husband both unaccompanied at one base while his wife and my husband were posted to another base.  How does that make sense!!?? Awesome "accommodation" that is (how about no attempt??).  Speak of that which you know, but do not assume that is actually occurring out here in the real world because it is not.

 

[TCM621]

Show me a military member with a civilian spouse who'd have to up and move like that without regard for the kids or their schooling. If our kids were still in grade school, they'd have no choice but to transfer schools in April - even if they were in grade 12.

You are looking at one. I had a choice. To spend another year away from my family or move them. My wife is giving up a very good job, moving my family in the middle of the school year and she is doing it because I have no choice where I live.


Vern, I know being a MSC sucks sometimes and I do have empathy for your situation. However, every Career Manager brief I have ever been too specifically states that accommodation will be attempted but the needs of the CF come first. You both agreed to unlimited liability. The civilian spouse never did. The civilian spouse just happened to fall in love with the fine people that CF members are. Her (or his) choice to is to marry the member and put up with all the shit for no extra gain or leave them. No matter how many ways you slice it, they are not the same thing. The military can fuck both members of a MSC around because they both signed on the dotted line.

That said, I totally agree with you that if they split you up they should expect you to have to support two households. In that regard, MSC should have equal (or more benefits) then civilian/member pairings because Civ/mbr pairings, in theory, have the ability to choice separation.


On another note, it feels like Sept all over again. I don't know if I will be losing 1000 bucks come Friday. I would hate to bounce my mortgage payment just before I sell my house and move my family here.

 

[Ayrsayle]

Not entirely sure how helpful this update is for all examples, but here in Edmonton I've just had a brief this morning as follows:

Separation expense is now gone. We will be paying for two residences (I'm currently in the shacks here in Edmonton, thankfully it'll only be an additional 310 a month). PLD is remaining in place for the near future, and LDA for the longer future. As an Lt straight out of the training system, I'll be losing 700 (Separation + second accommodations), but also gaining 300ish for LDA. Not quite as nightmarish as originally feared, but a loss nonetheless. It is however manageable.

All of this is to occur on Feb 1st - with decisions regarding quarters and rations being deferred to Feb 4th.

 

[armyvern]

You are looking at one. I had a choice. To spend another year away from my family or move them. My wife is giving up a very good job, moving my family in the middle of the school year and she is doing it because I have no choice where I live.


Vern, I know being a MSC sucks sometimes and I do have empathy for your situation. However, every Career Manager brief I have ever been too specifically states that accommodation will be attempted but the needs of the CF come first. You both agreed to unlimited liability. The civilian spouse never did. The civilian spouse just happened to fall in love with the fine people that CF members are. Her (or his) choice to is to marry the member and put up with all the shit for no extra gain or leave them. No matter how many ways you slice it, they are not the same thing. The military can fuck both members of a MSC around because they both signed on the dotted line.

That said, I totally agree with you that if they split you up they should expect you to have to support two households. In that regard, MSC should have equal (or more benefits) then civilian/member pairings because Civ/mbr pairings, in theory, have the ability to choice separation.

On another note, it feels like Sept all over again. I don't know if I will be losing 1000 bucks come Friday. I would hate to bounce my mortgage payment just before I sell my house and move my family here.

And yes, you may have chosen to move your family with you mid-year ... but you had a CHOICE to do so and could have chosen to wait until the end of the school year. We do not have the benefit of making either of those choices. Very different situation.

I have been away for 5 years straight now and have had restricted postings away from my family prior to the recent spat of them as well. I am quite aware of that liability and I and my svc spouse have never hesitated to react and do exactly what we were called upon to do in respect to that liability/CF requirement.  I am a Sup tech - we are everywhere.  Believe you me that there were plenty of Sup techs positions at my husbands former places of duty my rank/trade.  No accomodation by careers (for me) ... while pers of my rank/trade got to remain in those "unavailable" (to me) positions, some for upwards of 15 years.  Until shit like that ceases, accomodation is a nice word that is not actually occurring nor being attempted.

Thank you for highlighting my point about us MSC's being completely different: we both signed on and can both be fucked around and the CF is EXACTLY the entity benefitting from BOTH of our employment.  NOT the same as the other situation.

To be clearer on my part about paying for multiple accomodations:  we will be paying full and all expenses for two residences, two residental utilities, upkeep maintenance etc; one at his new place of duty and one at the old place of duty (even though it's going to be vacant - it must still be paid for, heated etc).  I will also be paying for my daily living expenses at a third location (my rent will be covered as I am the unaccompanied one).

BTW, I've posted on here that I agree with paying for meals - that is not what I have the issue with.  My issue is with incuring basic expenses (laundry, phone, insurance etc) out of my famly's pocket for what will be two locations --- and in April three locations --- all so the CF can benefit from the employment of us both.  At the end of the day, you are arguing with the wrong person about needs of the service. I know what they are and I am well aware that the CF's needs come first.  They get that twice and double the bang for their bucks out of this family. That's the difference.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Vern,

Unless your spouse or you is under obligatory service, you also have the choice to quit your job or move.  Same with the civilian spouse.  Yes, it may be a decision that makes little sense financially, but family-wise it makes sense.  Same on both ends.  If it doesn't suit your job doesn't suit your family lifestyle (regardless of whether it's a military career or a civilian career), time to make a choice.  And that choice will depend on your personal priorities.

 

[armyvern]

Vern,

Unless your spouse or you is under obligatory service, you also have the choice to quit your job or move.  Same with the civilian spouse.  Yes, it may be a decision that makes little sense financially, but family-wise it makes sense.  Same on both ends.  If it doesn't suit your job doesn't suit your family lifestyle (regardless of whether it's a military career or a civilian career), time to make a choice.  And that choice will depend on your personal priorities.

LMAO.

Now you're the expert on IR and career accomodation and MSCs too??  Funny that you fit into none of the three groups and have just started your own career (four years in school don't really count in my book as to what it's like in the real world).  When the CF gives me the same choices avail to a mil/civ spouse regarding delays of postings, time of year etc, then you can call us the same Max. Til then Max, we are not the same - no matter how you wish to paint it.  Now hush.  I wouldn't wish upon you what my family has done/gone through for this nation because we both love our jobs through no choice of our own. Our only choice is "go NOW or get out", not so for mil/civ who can delay a move, go see a padre etc etc ... Nor would I wish it upon any of my other worst (insert what you will).

 

[SupersonicMax]

Yes Vern, your situation is much worse than anybody out there. 

I had my fair share of career accommodation with my spouse, and had to make choices.  Some were family choices, some were work choices.  Yes, I had to do a stint on IR.  But I honestly don't see service spouse any different than civilian spouses.  Options are the same:  Both move, 1 leave the job or go IR.  Asking for a delay in a posting may not happen with a civilian spouse either.  Again, service needs before yours.  I had to move before it was ideal for my situation because of service needs.  It happens.  I don't know about your CM, but I know (from at least 2 cases) that CMs will make compromises for MSCs and apply common sense to the formula. 

You may have an attachment to your military career, either emotionally or financially (pension), but that's not to say that civilian spouses don't have the same attachments to their jobs (hell, my spouse had to quit a 120K$ a year job that she liked doing to follow).  Yes we may be "held to higher standards", and may have "greater responsibilities than the average joe" and all that cool aid drinking stuff.  The reality is that the military is really just a line of work when in Canada. We are not much different than the average canadian.  In fact, the CF should be a cross section of the canadian population.  We are only as special as we make it look like.

 

[armyvern]

Yes Vern, your situation is much worse than anybody out there. 

I had my fair share of career accommodation with my spouse, and had to make choices.  Some were family choices, some were work choices.  Yes, I had to do a stint on IR.  But I honestly don't see service spouse any different than civilian spouses.  Options are the same:  Both move, 1 leave the job or go IR.  Asking for a delay in a posting may not happen with a civilian spouse either.  Again, service needs before yours.  I had to move before it was ideal for my situation because of service needs.  It happens.  I don't know about your CM, but I know (from at least 2 cases) that CMs will make compromises for MSCs and apply common sense to the formula. 

You may have an attachment to your military career, either emotionally or financially (pension), but that's not to say that civilian spouses don't have the same attachments to their jobs (hell, my spouse had to quit a 120K$ a year job that she liked doing to follow).  Yes we may be "held to higher standards", and may have "greater responsibilities than the average joe" and all that cool aid drinking stuff.  The reality is that the military is really just a line of work when in Canada. We are not much different than the average canadian.  In fact, the CF should be a cross section of the canadian population.  We are only as special as we make it look like.

Please quote where I have ever stated that my situation was worse than anybody else's out there Lord SME.

For those who have said it is rare, I have stated that it is not for this family. 5 restricted postings now. And now into year 5 of the most recent series of them.

For those who have stated "careers attempts to accomodate", I have posted facts that show they have not.  Me and another's spouse unaccompanied at one location (costing the taxpayers money) while my spouse and his were in another location.  Telling me (in writing) that they could not accomodate me at location X because person A, B, and C all required to remain there for at least another year (all had been in that location for a minimum of 12 years - one had been there 15 [and that guy had a wife who didn't work --- why couldn't he be moved after 15 damn years?]). They were there when I left that place 7 postings ago! Old Boys Network; that's why.

As long as any backs are getting scratched --- "accomodation" is window dressing and using that as a fallback caveat is not on when it's not attempted.  I know it; I am living it as is my family. Their experience may differ from mine ... but my family's experience IS my family's experience --- a look at our respective MPRRs would tell anyone as much.

For those who say, "CF requirements come first", I say, "I know" and neither my spouse nor I has ever put ourself first. We do exactly our jobs and, in case you missed it, my bitch is not the requirement to be seperated from my family. I KNOW that. We are both willing to do that and DO do that and have proven such.  But, now, because some asshats abused IR ... it is precisely those of us who DO our jobs exactly as our demands of us who get screwed and get to pay for it.  Talk about collective punishment.  That is my issue with all of this.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

But, now, because some asshats abused IR ...

No, no, nope,...they were ALLOWED to abuse IR.  I don't blame the employee's for piss-poor management..............

 

[armyvern]

No, no, nope,...they were ALLOWED to abuse IR.  I don't blame the employee's for piss-poor management..............

I'd agree; but, I'd follow it up with a charge their asses for fraud and leave the rest of us out of it.  Some of these fraudsters and abusers are supposed leaders. Good times; thanks for screwing the rest of us is all I have to say to them.

 

[Pandora114]

I'd agree; but, I'd follow it up with a charge their asses for fraud and leave the rest of us out of it.  Some of these fraudsters and abusers are supposed leaders. Good times; thanks for screwing the rest of us is all I have to say to them.

Maybe that is why they aren't going for that option. Diffuse the c.o.c.k across every one and their stuff gets overlooked and they come out smelling like roses. 

 

[Strike]

Max, the problem with telling a MSC to get out if they don't like it is that some trades are very MSC heavy, such as my own. Imagine the potential for harm to a trade if that was the attitude that the CF had.

 

[TCM621]

Vern, your situation sucks. That much is clear. It also seems that your career managers have been really lazy.

 

[armyvern]

Vern, your situation sucks. That much is clear. It also seems that your career managers have been really lazy.

We are under new management these days ( ); that management gave me three choices when I met with them in November for APS 2014 due to some forecasted retirements/"aging out" for that year. 

I had them strike one immediately off the list (not due to the position offered [that posn would be seen by most Army types to be the most prestigious of the three], but due to it's location).  The other two positions (certainly not bad slots either) should get me a little closer to home.

In my world though, 2014 is still a long way off ... and I've found myself posted on less than 30 days notice before to fill some must-fill slot in jan or Feb because someone pulled pin.  Fingers crossed for 2014 holding.

 

[GnyHwy]

My immediate thought back when this stuff was still rumour was there should be a tiered system.  Up to 2 years full benefits, followed by benefits decreasing every year thereafter and ceasing at some point around 5 years.  Kind of the inverse of LDA.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Max, the problem with telling a MSC to get out if they don't like it is that some trades are very MSC heavy, such as my own. Imagine the potential for harm to a trade if that was the attitude that the CF had.

Then it's a manning issue and bot necessarily an allowance issue, isn't it?  I get it, it sucks having to make the choice, but that's also a choice non-service couples have to do pretty much every posting.

If you are away from your family for service reasons, the benefit package should be the same, regardless of where your spouse works.  In the end, we all gave to make the same choice.

 

[big45-70]

What is PLD and LDA?

 

[mariomike]

What is PLD and LDA?

Post Living Differential

Land Duty Allowance