Becoming a Crew Commander
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Bzzliteyr said:
What does this have to do with being a CC?
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You will need it to be a CC.
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K, roger that 
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From the Centre of Excellence: to clarify:George Wallace said:
25mm Turret Operator (gunner course not good enough: 3 days to 'convert' to turret op), all army, all trades
Then, corps specific crew commander course (Armour: ARCC, Arty: OPV, Inf/Engr: LAV APC CC)
reference: LANDFORGEN on this subject
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There was one on mine.Promoted to CPL on grad parade.In the reserves it seems to be quite common.He was 18 with one full year in class A.I guess his unit seen potential or had absolutely no one left to send due to tasking's, peoples civilian commitments and had to fill a spot.
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If everyone else is broken or useless than whats the problem. Its all about merit. Explain what your problem is with it.Recce By Death said:Does anyone but me see a HUGE problem with this?
Regards
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Are you sure its about merit?I know I got mine well before a bunch of guys I thought were ahead of me.I personally don't have a problem with it.If its a choice between a broken disgruntled CPL who cant do his job and an eager trooper who is well above his peers why not?Proably concrete yourself a future member who will stay in also,as he is getting ahead and not staying stagnet and bored.It ain't all about TI sometimes.Wasn't it called DAPS program in the 80's?I know a few senior NCO's that never held the rank of cpl,they seem to be doing fine.
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Oh let's just see.....a Tpr with 2 years in....so just got done his SQ / DP1 at the most.
Let's give him a PLQ and throw him on a DP3A.
The let's place him on tour CCing a Coyote or LAV.
4 years at the most in the army and he's "good to go" ?
I sure as heeeelll wouldn't want to be in that crew.
Just because there may be a lack of able bodies in a unit doesn't mean that the able ones should be shuffled up the ladder prior to them being ready.
I do have a problem with Ptes being thrown onto PLQ.....primarily because they still don't know what is expected of them. They (the majority) do not possess the ness skill set to enable them to do the job.
Cripes, most of them don't know how to pack a ruck or go on patrol effectively....and you want to place them in charge of other soldiers? Yep, 18 years old and out the wire you go with your callsign.
You can be their gunner......
My 0.02 donkey dollars' worth.
Regards
Let's give him a PLQ and throw him on a DP3A.
The let's place him on tour CCing a Coyote or LAV.
4 years at the most in the army and he's "good to go" ?
I sure as heeeelll wouldn't want to be in that crew.
Just because there may be a lack of able bodies in a unit doesn't mean that the able ones should be shuffled up the ladder prior to them being ready.
I do have a problem with Ptes being thrown onto PLQ.....primarily because they still don't know what is expected of them. They (the majority) do not possess the ness skill set to enable them to do the job.
Cripes, most of them don't know how to pack a ruck or go on patrol effectively....and you want to place them in charge of other soldiers? Yep, 18 years old and out the wire you go with your callsign.
You can be their gunner......
My 0.02 donkey dollars' worth.
Regards
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I don't know with times like these and the strengthening of the forces. You might just see some guys moving very very fast up through the rank system. The Liberal party has destroyed us over the years, so I don't think we have much of a choice. And you are not going to be able to wait for the senior guys to get better with the army growing, we can't afford it. Look at Charles Coy 1 RCR who do you think was running that place for a little bit. I'm not saying that to insult anyone, it is just that you can't wait you have to carry on. And that is exactly what they are doing
PRO PATRIA
PRO PATRIA
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Recce By Death said:
I agree RBD.But I believe where your going to see this the most is from the reserve componet,as I've seen it twice in the past two years.I guess its OK back at their units (lack of MCPL's)but I don't believe a 3 year MCPL would keep it for Afghanistan.The only time I seen a guy with less than 4 years in on plq was here at the school.He was advance promoted at 3 yrs to cpl and was pretty switched on IMHO.A lot of people bitched but cest la vie.He worked for 15 years civilian side of DND and knew his stuff when it came to paper work also.But overall a good troop.Privates should be learning soldiering for the first three years period.Makes em a better leader when they understand whats going on in underthem in my opinion.
cheers
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Come on RBD look around. We are experiencing attrition at an amazing rate. We will not have a choice in the near future and so it is a matter of narrowed selection gates and informed evaluations but it will happen. It wasn't that long ago that the average MCpl crew commander had 5 years in. BTW your math sucks. If a Soldier joins at 18 then gets a PLQ with 2 year that does not mean he will be on a DP3 right away but you insinuate he will be crew commanding at 18 years of age. And another thing do the years mean that much. We have MCpls with 20 plus years in that can't be trusted as crew commanders. Its all about wether a guy can do the job. I sat in the vortex for a long time when development in the Corps slowed right down but those days are over.
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OK, helmets on. :warstory:
In 1989 I came into 2 RCR from the Mo-Litia, direct entry, as a corporal. I was one of two Cpls in H Coy: the other was in with the CQ. I was a section 2IC straight off the tomato truck. I did my ISCC, and the only other Cpls on it were either old dudes or mostly guys from 2 CDO (Yes, did my ISCC in Wainwright). My current WO was never a corporal. My former WO was on his ISCC six months after QL 3. That was the 1980s. Times are different, but hey, if a guy can be a Lt Pl Comd after a few phases and all that at 23, a Pte who's paid his dues in training, does well (kids today sure are brighter than when I was a kid), shows potential, I say, "Why not?". Sure, not as experienced as the 10 year MCpl most are used to, but to stifle progress, I say no way. Promote the sharp ones, that's what I say. They have drive, they have ambition and they perform.
OK, helmets off.
In 1989 I came into 2 RCR from the Mo-Litia, direct entry, as a corporal. I was one of two Cpls in H Coy: the other was in with the CQ. I was a section 2IC straight off the tomato truck. I did my ISCC, and the only other Cpls on it were either old dudes or mostly guys from 2 CDO (Yes, did my ISCC in Wainwright). My current WO was never a corporal. My former WO was on his ISCC six months after QL 3. That was the 1980s. Times are different, but hey, if a guy can be a Lt Pl Comd after a few phases and all that at 23, a Pte who's paid his dues in training, does well (kids today sure are brighter than when I was a kid), shows potential, I say, "Why not?". Sure, not as experienced as the 10 year MCpl most are used to, but to stifle progress, I say no way. Promote the sharp ones, that's what I say. They have drive, they have ambition and they perform.
OK, helmets off.
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Spring_bok said:
Not really, it's been worse in the past. It's cyclic. Tour finishes and 20% put in OTs or want out.
Perhaps, but again....it's not going to be like days of old where one day a Pte, the next day here is yer leaf and the keys to yer tank.
I've been in for about as long as you and never seen that happen.
Yeah, my math sucks. So say he's fresh off the streets on his 17th b-day, does the full meal deal at Mach 4 and viola....at 20 years old. Still want to be in his crew rolling around Panjwii?
It's called experience that comes with time in rank. Even, for shytes and giggles, say that someone does 4 years as a Tpr, 2 years as a Cpl prior to going on their PLQ, one year as a PLQ qual Cpl then be placed on their ARCC would make more sense than to just rush troops through the gates.
7 years from coming off civvie street to having your own C/S would sit alot better with most troops out there.
As did I. I'm all for promotion and getting the troops moving again, it's great to see.
But promoting just for promotion's sake when the troops aren't ready for it doesn't sit well with me.
That could lead to some of the troubles of the past.
I'm sure that at least we could agree on that.
Again.....my 0.02 worth of donkey dollars.
Regards
Bzzliteyr
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No names no pack drill, but there are a few guys that passed on my DP3 that had plenty o'time in and couldn't even copy a trace in the alloted time, let alone pass the information on to their crews correctly. They are also the guys that have 17-20 years in, in some cases prior military experience in the 80s for crying out loud!! Time in does NOT equal experience. There are young soldiers at the regiments right now with less than three years in that have more EXPERIENCE than several people at the "center of excellence"!!! I am sorry RBD, I believe your rant is more due to jealousy (and we all have it) that these young privates are moving quicker than we did.
I remember how ticked off the people at the regiment were when all of us straight off our TQ3 came with Leopard as our primary PCF.. the "old guys"(read four years in) at the unit thought they should have gotten it before some silly "pouffes"..
C'est la vie.. move on, to the job to the best of your abilities and work WITH the changes, not AGAINST them as is so often the case in this Army of ours.
Bzz
I remember how ticked off the people at the regiment were when all of us straight off our TQ3 came with Leopard as our primary PCF.. the "old guys"(read four years in) at the unit thought they should have gotten it before some silly "pouffes"..
C'est la vie.. move on, to the job to the best of your abilities and work WITH the changes, not AGAINST them as is so often the case in this Army of ours.
Bzz
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Bzzliteyr said:
Not in every case, but they do go hand in hand wouldn't you agree?
True, but are the majority ready to do what is being discussed here?
Hmmmm....no jealousy on my part. Take another look at my last post "I'm all for promotion and getting the troops moving again, it's great to see. "
Nothing worse than seeing good troops rot due to a merit system taking forever getting guys moving up the ladder. I know of a few guys going up the ladder a bit faster than it was only 10 years ago....and I'm actually relieved to see it happen.
As far as I'm concerned you should have at least 1 PCF prior to getting to your unit anyways, if not 2.
Ummm...the changes that are being discussed here are purely (at best) hypothetical. If the system changes, as it always does, then of course we roll with them.
It's the way of things.
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In some cases this is Good. In some cases this is very WRONG. Yes there are some very talented young soldiers these days. There are some very experienced and talented "older" soldiers too. What does promoting they young to keep the 'Army' young really do for the morale of the guys who have been passed over numerous time in that age discrimination game? I have seen so many young guys with out experience, just a 'Gung Ho' attitude, get promoted way before their time. I am seeing some of them leaving the Forces today as WOs, MWOs, and higher, and still they have poor man management skills and still lack any real knowledge; but they can crew command. Whoopee! This argument is really nonsense. Some guys are good at it. Some aren't. It is human nature that is involved and it is not infallible. Do any of you think it is any different in any other profession?
If given a choice, I still support hiring and promotioning on merit alone.
If given a choice, I still support hiring and promotioning on merit alone.
Bzzliteyr
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If the merit system were not tainted I would support it too.. how many times have we seen QM/RHQ/SHQ staff pass above the "troops"? For some of us that have been at the school, it has happened many times. The new DP1 will have just that RBD, two PCFs (Coy dvr and surv) when they leave and they should actually have practiced OPs and patrols.. it will be nice.
