BC Pipeline Explosion/Bombing

[George Wallace]

Jack Stratton

Yes. It was an unintentional double negative........now edited.

At the time of the Charity game, they are only hockey players.

IEDs are improvised, as most booby traps are.  IEDs can be manufactured, and so can booby traps.

Insurgents who don't value human life, nor honour the Laws of War/Armed Conflict, and kill innocent civilians, are terrorists.

 

[leroi]

I hope someone here will correct me on this but is the Phelph's family brand of superhatred of the entire Western world not terrorism too--i.e. "whackjob" variety of terrorism?

See them in this video attempting to violate/desecrate the funeral of a soldier and incite violence somewhere in the USA:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/e9IbtD7Kzrg&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="

I mean, does someone actually have to be killed for an act of terrorism to take place? I would not hesitate to use violence against these people if they dared to upset the funeral of a loved one, friend, or Fallen Comrade. And, many people have strong feelings about this. So anytime they show up to disrupt a funeral, I think there will be a great potential for vigilante violence--if other social controls are lacking, that is.

 

[1feral1]

I assume you did not intend to double negative that last sentence. My short answer to your three semi-rhetorical questions in order are: no, yes, no.

Even that yes is conditional, if IED's are actually really being manufactured through a cottage industry what you have is a non-factory produced land mine and calling it a booby trap hides the nature of the required supply chain, logistics and economics involved. If IED's are truly improvised on the spot from local materials - well there's not much you can do but use detection and mine clearing techniques. On the otherhand, i f there's really a little industry going on, well then I would think that industry would be a target for our forces.

Bloody hell Jack, its looking like you're trying to separate fly shyte from pepper here.

Reading your posts in detail has made me feel I am watching a game of ping-pong. Remember, we're all on the same side here.

'Home grown' terrorists are simply that regardless of their goals and intentions. I don't give a fat rats ass if its a pipeline or a train station. HE/HME has no conscience and KILLS, and it looks like those making, setting these devices and supporting their pathetic cause don't either.

Sooner or later someone is going to get killed, even if they are only meaning to damage property.

IMHO this matter should be dealt with as if it was in a city. Those guilty should be caught, charged and gaoled just like those muslim radicals in TO.

Having seen (and heard) the results of IED/EFP (up close and personal) made from Mil grade HE (along with HE ordnance - arty and mortar rds etc) and the HME stuff which people make, I think I have earned my right to comment here.

Enough! Stop this pissing contest, as I am asking you politely to PLEASE stick to your lane of epertise. Talk is cheap Jack.


OWDU

 

[Jack Stratton]

Jack Stratton

Yes. It was an unintentional double negative........now edited.

At the time of the Charity game, they are only hockey players.

IEDs are improvised, as most booby traps are.  IEDs can be manufactured, and so can booby traps.

Insurgents who don't value human life, nor honour the Laws of War/Armed Conflict, and kill innocent civilians, are terrorists.

I can see we're not going to agree on this exactly so I'll take one more swing at this and then agree to disagree. I guess my point is that context plays a part in defining human activities.

A team of politicians playing a charity game are not just hockey players - they are fund raisers and they are selling the public on their "altruism" (real or feigned). If my shinny team played your for beers and glory some time, then we would be nothing but hockey players.

If some one is manufacturing something, particularly if they make more than one of the same device and they are designed for a particular use, then it is not improvised. Unless we're to start saying laser guided bombs are improvised explosive devices because the factory worker making it and the government buying them do not know in advance where/when it will be dropped and it might be used on a target of opportunity.

The third one on the definition of terrorism - I have covered as the general theme of several of my posts on this thread. No need to repeat as you have read them already and I did not yet convince you.

If I still have not convinced you of my view, no worries - disagreement is the basis of good conversation and democracy.

Cheers.

Lets hope the Gravel Road Cops (GRC/RCMP) have the perpetrators of this pipeline thing caught and locked up soon.

 

[Jack Stratton]

Bloody hell Jack, its looking like you're trying to separate fly shyte from pepper here.


Enough! Stop this pissing contest, as I am asking you politely to PLEASE stick to your lane of epertise. Talk is cheap Jack.


OWDU

Absolutely, we are all on the same side here on the fundamentals I want these guys stopped before they do more than cause a leak. My last post (which after hit after this one of yours) was intended to be my last words on this topic except maybe if they catch the perpetrator(s) because the discussion of what might or might not be defined as terrorism had run its course.

With respect, however, and in full recognition that you have far greater experience than me with explosives (home made or industrially sourced) and the sharp end of conflict, I do take issue with your assumption that I might not know what I am talking about. Chemical energy, toxic gasses, hydrocarbons, pressure piping, fires and explosions of the same, facility siting, risk management, security and safety of said facilities is actually my professional line of work. While I am sure you have a much better idea what a given explosive or ordinance item might do to a a particular target and the people immediately present - I am paid to know what the energy and hazards inside the pipe are and I have seen a few fires, explosions, toxic clouds, burning metal and other such results of LOPC (Loss Of Primary Containment). So far I have been fortunate enough not to be personally involved in the investigation of anything where anyone was killed but I do spend a lot of my time working out how to keep the hazards under control and on the inside of the metal.

In many countries, including ours, the government and industry have not taken much in the way of precautions to prevent someone with explosives creating a Bhopal size disaster out of one of our gas plants, refineries or chemical plants. In my technical opinion the bomb on the outside of a pipe should not be the biggest point of concern, its what happens after the pipe or vessel is cracked open that is really going to do the damage to the public. Unless we are talking about a truly huge amount of HE, the energy in a bomb is pretty small compared to the energy we have available in say a half a million kilograms of butane in a storage sphere or in the 2000 psig hydrocracking reactors used to upgrade bitumen, never mind the storage facilities full of toxic chemicals like cyanides used in commercial chemical processes.

 

[1feral1]

Jack, I am njot doubting your civilian credentials.

Civvyworld on a pipeline, and defence on the frontline are two different kettles of fish. SVIED/VBIED/IED/EFP be they HME/ Mil grade HE, or from improved HE fragmentation producing ordnance (not ordinance) are only the initiators which infact produce casuaties, thats where I am trying to make my point, along with the definition of a terr.

Anyone who knowlingly aids, assists, places, or manufactures explosives for the purpose of making a point, regardless of the environment or religious beliefs are guilty.

We can agree that security is everyone's business, and in the short term, hope the bad guys in this case are survailed to catch the bigger fish, then grab all of them when they least expect it. It will come, lets just hope the RCMP have their shyte together on this one, and don't go the way of Mayerthrope like they did not so long ago. One life (a good guy) is too many too lose.

Regards,

Wes

 

[adaminc]

I hope someone here will correct me on this but is the Phelph's family brand of superhatred of the entire Western world not terrorism too--i.e. "whackjob" variety of terrorism?

See them in this video attempting to violate/desecrate the funeral of a soldier and incite violence somewhere in the USA:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/e9IbtD7Kzrg&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="

I mean, does someone actually have to be killed for an act of terrorism to take place? I would not hesitate to use violence against these people if they dared to upset the funeral of a loved one, friend, or Fallen Comrade. And, many people have strong feelings about this. So anytime they show up to disrupt a funeral, I think there will be a great potential for vigilante violence--if other social controls are lacking, that is.

I do not believe this falls under terrorism, but "hate speech" in Canada, or just Free Speech with the 1st Amendment in the US. They can be arrested for disrupting the service, that's why they have to stay x number of feet back from the service, and they usually do. Most of the family is lawyers or going to school to be a lawyer so they know the law and follow it closely so they can't get busted. But don't worry, they will get there's again someday soon, last year I remember reading about someone suing them for protesting a funeral, and the plaintiff won, and the Westboro Baptist Church had to pay out $10.6 million.

I think for it to be considered terrorism, there has to be violence or threatened violence (on civilians or infrastructure or whatnot) with intent to change government policy somehow, be it local, regional (state/prov), or federal.

 

[NL_engineer]

If some one is manufacturing something, particularly if they make more than one of the same device and they are designed for a particular use, then it is not improvised. Unless we're to start saying laser guided bombs are improvised explosive devices because the factory worker making it and the government buying them do not know in advance where/when it will be dropped and it might be used on a target of opportunity.

Well said laser guided bomb is a conventional munition, designed to be used as an air dropped bomb.  If I take said bomb, and tinker with it, so that it now is activated by a pressure plate; I have made an improvised explosive device.

An improvised explosive device (IED) is a bomb constructed and deployed in ways other than in conventional military action. They may be partially comprised of conventional military explosives, such as an artillery round, attached to a detonating mechanism.

LINK (well my source sucks, but it is public)

The same goes for using other Military munitions, and using them in roles that they were not designed to be used in.


Just my educated 2 cents

 

[Kat Stevens]

Didn't I we go through an unnecessarily long debate on this very topic a few years ago?

 

[Greymatters]

There was at least one last year.  I think both of us made comments on it...

 

[AmmoTech90]

NATO definitions from AAP

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40803/post-348731.html#msg348731

and

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37517/post-484979.html#msg484979

 

[Scott]

In many countries, including ours, the government and industry have not taken much in the way of precautions to prevent someone with explosives creating a Bhopal size disaster out of one of our gas plants, refineries or chemical plants. In my technical opinion the bomb on the outside of a pipe should not be the biggest point of concern, its what happens after the pipe or vessel is cracked open that is really going to do the damage to the public. Unless we are talking about a truly huge amount of HE, the energy in a bomb is pretty small compared to the energy we have available in say a half a million kilograms of butane in a storage sphere or in the 2000 psig hydrocracking reactors used to upgrade bitumen, never mind the storage facilities full of toxic chemicals like cyanides used in commercial chemical processes.

+1,000,000!!!

Look around you. Almost wherever you reside in Canada you could be affected by an attack on one of these facilities where "security" is often times a gate. The difference between nuke facilities (and I am not arguing its need there) and energy facilities is stark and ludicrous. Johnny knows he can make way more whiz bang with fuel rods...he gets bored seeing the guards with MP5's and decides to go wipe Sarnia and Port Huron off the map - we still lose.

Yes, I realize that I have gone away from the issue at hand, this idiot or band of idiots in BC are hitting pipelines and likely for some twisted reason somehow connected to the environment/exploration in their area/H2S (which makes the idea of hitting said pipeline even dumber, by the way) and I am talking about mowing down chemical valley. But the point was raised about security and if I was Johnny with a bit more of a point to prove I'd take a long hard look at this and plan for the future knowing there is not much in my way.

And you can plug and play the Sarnia/Port Huron scenario almost anywhere kids.

 

[Scott]

Round three: Timmy strikes again.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/10/31/bc-3rd-pipeline-explosion.html#socialcomments

Usual caveats

Another explosion hit an EnCana Corp. sour-gas pipeline in B.C. Friday afternoon, this time near the small community of Tomslake, south of Dawson Creek near the Alberta border, the RCMP said.

"The site of an explosion was discovered at a natural gas wellhead at approximately 12:30 p.m. today," Sgt. Tim Shields said in a news release Friday.

"The site is about 12 kilometres northwest of the community of Tomslake … The explosion appears to have been deliberately detonated and is located in a rural isolated area," he said.

The explosion caused a small gas leak that was quickly contained by EnCana engineers.

The leak did not pose any danger to the public, and there is no report of any injuries, Shields said.

Members of the RCMP Integrated National Security Enforcement Team are at the scene.

    'Right now I am very scared. I don't know what to do. I've been trying to find my family, load them up and get out of here.'— Eric Kuenzl, Tomslake resident

A contract worker discovered the gas leak at the well site and informed operations engineers, EnCana said in a news release Friday.

EnCana has notified the B.C. Oil and Gas Commission about the latest incident.

"Given the two previous vandalism events earlier this month in the region, EnCana immediately contacted the RCMP, and officers are at the scene investigating the cause of the leak and whether it is connected to the previous pipeline explosions in the region," the release said.

It's the third sour-gas pipeline explosion targeting EnCana's infrastructure in northeastern B.C. this month. All three have been in the same general area, but police have not determined whether Friday's blast is linked with the other two, which took place on Oct. 11 and Oct. 16.

A threatening letter was sent to Dawson Creek media prior to the first explosion. The letter called Encana, which is based in Calgary, and other energy companies "terrorists" for expanding deadly gas wells and gave the companies a deadline to shut down their operations.

Tomslake resident Eric Kuenzl said he only heard about the Friday blast from the media.

"Right now I am very scared. I don't know what to do. I've been trying to find my family, load them up and get out of here," Kuenzl told CBC News in a telephone interview.

He said local authorities should have notified nearby residents immediately after the explosion.

"Our own people wouldn't tell us what was going on here and apparently this happened at about 12:30 this afternoon. What took until six o'clock for the world to tell us about what's going on?" Kuenzl said.

 

[George Wallace]

I'll quote the California views on this: "Three strikes and you're out!" 

I think this is progressing well beyond simple vandalism and "criminal".  I am going to stick to calling this "terrorism" and as more bombs are set off, I am not going to change that opinion.  The full weight of the Law should be brought down on these insane people.

 

[George Wallace]

As the situation develops:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.  (Link in Title)


Police suspect local connection in pipeline blasts

CTV.ca News Staff
02/11/2008 11:40:33 AM

Investigators believe local perpetrators are behind three recent pipeline blasts in northeastern British Columbia, and are concerned about the increasingly "brazen" nature of the attacks on EnCana facilities.

RCMP Sgt. Tim Shields told reporters Saturday that police believe whoever is responsible for the pipeline blasts likely has knowledge of the area where the attacks have occurred.

"When looking at when and where the attacks occurred, it is safe to say that the person or persons responsible knows how to locate the sites and has knowledge of the sites," he said.

"For a person to have this information, they would likely have to be from the immediate area or have spent significant time in the area."

Shields said police are also concerned that the blasts are moving towards populated areas.

"We're taking this very seriously," he said. "This is an attack on the critical infrastructure of Canada."

The first blast occurred Oct. 11 near a sour gas line, about 50 kilometres east of Dawson Creek, B.C.

Five days later, a second blast occurred along a pipeline off Highway 2, about a half-kilometer from the Alberta border.

The latest blast, which Shields characterized as "the more brazen attack out of the three," occurred just after noon on Friday about 12 km northeast of Tomslake, B.C., a small rural community just west of the B.C.-Alberta border.

Workers at the EnCana facility remained at the site at midday on Saturday, working to stop the flow of gas along the pipelines.

Karen Goodings, district chairwoman for the Peace River Regional District, said local residents also believe there is a local connection to the attacks.

"I don't know who this person (or) people are but I wish they would realize how much they are putting other people -- and themselves -- at risk," she told The Canadian Press.

Shields said the third blast was not reported by local residents.

"This often occurs when people think that somebody else will inform the authorities," he said. "We, of course, would rather have duplicate calls to ensure that we are aware of any potential situation."

"For investigators and from a public safety standpoint, it's important for police to receive the information as soon as possible to contain the scene and potentially catch whomever is responsible for these acts."

With files from The Canadian Press

 

[Greymatters]

Hmmm... its an attack on the critical infrastructure of Canada, but its not terrorism?

Sounds like its more of a case of somebody higher up forbidding the use of the 'T' word...

 

[Love793]

Its more likely that the Police PR pers is hesitant to use the term for fear of wide spread panic. Not that someone blowing pipe lines in the local community won't cause that enough.

 

[retiredgrunt45]

Eco-terror has been around since the industrial revolution. One of the first eco-terror groups were the (Luddites of England)"who were know as the "anti-machine people" and wanted to stop the industrial revolution and would blow up steam machines and factories in the UK and sabotage Londons sewer systems.

Modern day groups like the (ALF) "animal liberation front or the (ELF) "Earth liberation front" have been around since the mid seventies and early eighties and working all around the world, releasing animals from laboratories, burning down large poultry farms, sabotaging major oil fields, pipelines, refineries and torching factories that produce equipment for the oil and gas industry. These groups were also responsible for fire bombing SUV's at dealerships, torching whole condominium subdivisions and tree spiking.

This type of eco-terror has been around much longer than the modern day terrorist that we've come to know as Al-qaeda or the taliban and will be around long after al-qaeda or the taliban have gone the way of the dinosaur.

There are two types of people in this world. The anti-establishment and the pro-establishment. The only difference between the two is the willingness of the one to force it's twisted philosophy on the other, with the belief and conviction in that what they are doing is right.

Eco-terrorism, terrorism. What's the difference? (0) 

 

[Greymatters]

Eco-terror has been around since the industrial revolution. One of the first eco-terror groups were the (Luddites of England)"who were know as the "anti-machine people" and wanted to stop the industrial revolution and would blow up steam machines and factories in the UK and sabotage Londons sewer systems. 

No, thats wasnt eco-terrorism - that was about saving their jobs, not saving the environment...

 

[retiredgrunt45]

How they went about it was the same difference. You could say the same about the IRA, but again how they went about it classified it as terrorism.

If they wanted to save their jobs, there's other ways of going about it, other than blowing things up.