Battle Fitness: Does the BFT really prepare us for battle?

[daftandbarmy]

I'm just wondering what people think we should have as our test of battle fitness? Is the current test an adequate preparation for what is required in battle these days, especially for combat arms troops? If not, what do you think we should do as our test of battle fitness?

Thanks,

D&B

 

[geo]

Heh.... everyone has an opinion.

All in all, the question is - what are we trying to prove each time we do the BFT?
Is this a basic once a year thing to dag green or is it indicative that you are good to go?

The BFT is a building block - if you can't do that, then you're wasting everyone's time & holding your section back.

The Fireman's carry is going / should be going, cause there are more people injured (being carried AND doing the carrying) doing that one thing than anywhere else in the BFT... (anyone hear anything about the replacement "drag")

 

[Gunner98]

IMHO, the BFT is certainly the minimum fitness standard for all, but each Branch and MOC needs to set their own deployment selection standard, then the TF Comd should establish, and have CLS bless, a deployment fitness regime leading to his/her deployment standard.

 

[X-mo-1979]

Fitness is a personal thing I guess.The BFT proves a person can walk 13 km with a light load on their back.

Does it prepare us for battle?Hell no!Not everyone in the army needs to walk 13 km and carry a man 100m either.
However to implement ANYTHING in this army takes years,money,studies that in the end produces another test that someone
will find a fault in.

Getting rid of the firemans carry sounds great now...give it two years and there will be people on here talking about the good old day's and how better the firemans carry was.Again it's all personal.

I would love to see thing's more challenging. 2 CMBG has been doing more stuff than the last time I was posted here.It use to be the normal 5 km slow run with the base CO,now it's morphed into a 26km forced march in TV with weapons,10 round grouping and a written test at the end.It was all kinds of ****** up,but at least the higher esch is trying...which is a vast improvement than a few years ago.

I personally see the cooper's test as a good battle fitness test,however as I said PT being a personal thing someone will always disagree.

My grand children will most likely be doing the BFT.It's easy to administer,plan for,and gets people the check in the box...which I noticed is getting really big nowadays.

 

[fletchsd]

When it comes to assessing the fitness standards for battle, the BFT does a better job than the beep test at least.  Remember that along with the fireman's carry, we now have to do the trench dig as well as the ammo crate lift to the tailgate of an ML.  I think these together are a very effective test.
In order to improve it further, I would recommend a full battle load with body armor (plates included), and the normal ruck sack load.
All of the above is an effective minimum standard for battle,  IMHO.

 

[medaid]

Way better then the MSR IMO...

 

[PMedMoe]

as well as the ammo crate lift to the tailgate of an ML. 

I thought the crate lift got dropped from the BFT.  ???

I would recommend a full battle load with body armor (plates included), and the normal ruck sack load.

Then I would fail every time.  I probably couldn't even stand up with all that on! 
My suggestion would be to drop the ruck and carry only essentials (e.g. battle load).  Also, IMHO, it should go by kit list and not weight.

 

[dangerboy]

My suggestion would be to drop the ruck and carry only essentials (e.g. battle load).  Also, IMHO, it should go by kit list and not weight.

The problem with the kit list is once you are overseas, you will not be following it.  You will be carrying water, food ammo and consumable supplies such as batteries.  The kit list has all sorts of stuff which you ditch to make room for the essentials.  It also doesn't make provisions for your job ie Pl signaler has the radio in his ruck, C6 gunner extra belts and the poor medic their jump bag.  No two people will have a ruck that weighs the same, if you go by weight it is somewhat standardised.  If that makes any sense.

 

[X-mo-1979]

The problem with the kit list is once you are overseas, you will not be following it.  You will be carrying water, food ammo and consumable supplies such as batteries.  The kit list has all sorts of stuff which you ditch to make room for the essentials.  It also doesn't make provisions for your job ie Pl signaler has the radio in his ruck, C6 gunner extra belts and the poor medic their jump bag.  No two people will have a ruck that weighs the same, if you go by weight it is somewhat standardised.  If that makes any sense.

The other problem is my trade do not even bring a rucksack with us.So really doing a BFT does nothing for battle fitness for me.

It's the troop NCM's who should be driving their troop's to be battle ready.NCO' and officer's ensuring the time to do so.

Battle fitness can mean many things,and it's up to the individual troop's sections to push their troops to a high level of fitness to ensure battle fitness success.

 

[Gunner98]

fletchsd,

Have you actually participated in a BFT that did all 3 - fireman's carry, trench dig and ammo box toss? I know I haven't yet?

 

[geo]

It's the troop NCM who should be driving their troops to be battle ready - having been provided with adequate time to do so.

That having been said, it IS necessary to validate that the training has met the expectations of the CLS.  Now, given the variety of trades employed by Land forces - it is necessary to provide a general all round base standard for everyone... Does an Infantryman or Sapper need to meet a much higher level of fitness - so as to meet the realities of combat in theatre?  You betcha.

 

[fletchsd]

fletchsd,

Have you actually participated in a BFT that did all 3 - fireman's carry, trench dig and ammo box toss? I know I haven't yet?

Yes, we did it twice in Meaford when this first came out.  Near the obstacle course at the parking lot they have the large sandbox containers full of gravel which is what you do the trench dig in, and we  just brought the MLVW over for the ammo crate lift.
I think it is correct that the ammo crate lift is gone now though.  Quite a few injuries were occurring because of improper lifting technique, but I still believe it is relevant and should be done.
As for doing the march with full battle load and ruck,

Then I would fail every time.  I probably couldn't even stand up with all that on!
My suggestion would be to drop the ruck and carry only essentials (e.g. battle load).  Also, IMHO, it should go by kit list and not weight.

I totally agree that it would be difficult in the time alloted, but perhaps an increase in time, or as you say, go with only a full battle load. But I think it should still have to have a minimum weight.

 

[geo]

I believe the crate lift was removed from the BFT because of the problems arrising from having people who are 6ft tall alongside people who are  +/- 5ft nothing.  The 6ft fella could get a good handhold on the crate.... the little guy/gal didn,t have it too easy.... leading to injuries

 

[OldSolduer]

Does any of this stuff truly prepare us for battle? The only thing that will prepare us is training under realistic conditions. If that necessitates us carrying heavier rucksacks, with longer time limits, so be it.
Instead of the ammo lift, how about a shoot to confirm zero and demostrate the ability to group within the standard set for your trade? This would be done post-march of course.....

 

[geo]

Ummm... you thinking of the 2 x 10 Miles with a range qualification at the end of the 2nd shoot?

With respect to the question "Does any of this stuff truly prepare us for battle? "  No of course not.  Nothing really and truly prepares you for battle.  Any and all training needed to prepare the troops will be gradual and designed to bring everyone up over a period of time.

I remember times when you'd get a newly minted Lt showing up at the unit - straight off his phase training at CTC.  1st thing he'd do ( or try to anyway) was to lead a PT session and "run everyone into the ground"... As a young fella with all his knees intact and probably in the best shape of his life, he'd relish his ablilty to run the troops into the ground to show himself superior to the troops...

 

[fletchsd]

Does any of this stuff truly prepare us for battle?

Back to the original question, its not designed to train us for battle.  I still think it is a good test of Battle Fitness. Suggesting it is not adequate to prepare us for battle is suggesting you want it to encompass trade specific skills as well.  That is what the rest of our training does which is tested through IBTS and other means.
Once my troops meet this minimum standard of the BFT, I know they are fit enough to continue with the challenging training that tests their preparedness for battle.
As, OldSolduer suggests  I think that a shoot after the march is excellent.  Does anyone else remember completing a "march and shoot" like this?  We haven't done one in years now, but interest level was always very high in these types of activities and gave the troops something more to look forward to at the end of the BFT instead of just foot inspection.  Including it as part of the BFT would make the logistics of it difficult though.

 

[OldSolduer]

I would stick with the 13 km force march, done as an individual.
Kit carried:
Helmet
Personal Weapon (C7)
Front line ammo load (Simulated weight including grenades weight)
Tac Vest (Issued) & your Flak vest (if that is what its called)
Minimum 2 liters water
Rucksack, containing whatever it is that needs to be carried

I really don't know what the total weight of all the kit above is or what weight to carry. Does 80 lbs seem reasonable?
How about a section or platoon march and shoot? Make it a competition. BUT...don't let some one come in under a certain time. I've seen these before and if you don't harness the 22 year old Lt attempting to be the next CDS, he'll only hurt good soldiers.

Geo, I remember officers like that and you didn't ahve to be a brand new Lt either....I've seen Majors and LCols do the same thing, and then tell the 40 year old cpls that they are slugs.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Everyone has their own idea of what Battle Fitness is because, lets face it, everyone has a different definition of "battle" for their trade.

Does rucking a retarded amount of kms with battle load and plates then carrying a guy prove that a Sup Tech is any better at deadlifting boxes of heavy items? Does a trench dig mean a Sig Op will be any faster deploying the mast, or be better at carrying a Server Box? Not necessarily.

The BFT is all relative to what you do. There will always be bitching that its too easy or too hard; but as it stands its a good, basic reflection of your general fitness as a soldier. Infanteers, Sappers, and Trooper have a higher requirement than some of the other trades, but for those other trades there is a minimum level required. The BFT , IMO fulfills that . Your true Battle Fitness is your ability to perform your job as part of the battle, IMHO. That's different across the board, and that falls upon the lower level management in the units to keep on top of that.

Regardless, I kinda do like the nice walk with my comrades ... 8)

As for a march and shoot,  correct me if I'm wrong, don't most units do that anywaysas part od work up? Also, if we add a shoot to the BFT, do we get rid of PWT 1-3? I know a lot of time is spent on PWT, and to tack that on the end of a march would be a lot less enjoyable than the gala affair it sounds like. Am I wrong ???

 

[Gunner98]

Yes, we did it twice in Meaford when this first came out.  Near the obstacle course at the parking lot they have the large sandbox containers full of gravel which is what you do the trench dig in, and we  just brought the MLVW over for the ammo crate lift.
I think it is correct that the ammo crate lift is gone now though. 

Congrats - lots of Bases have the pea gravel coffins (which I have used).  But I am unclear as to what it proves - digging a shell scrape in gravel in 6 minutes.  As for the ammo box lift - 48 boxes in 5 minutes.  These tasks are an annoyance, harmful if done incorrectly and IMHO do not really meet the intention as stated in AFS Manual, "designed to ensure that you are capable of enduring the rigours of operations and, if necessary, combat."  Are we tossing ammo boxes rather than grenades at the enemy?  Much like the 2hr 26min and 20 secs - why 26 mins 20 seconds - why not 30 minutes?  Why 13 kms, other than we used to do 10 miles, but why was it 10 miles?

 

[OldSolduer]

A shoot after the march would not be a PWT. It would simply confirm the zero of the weapon and that the soldier can group 5 shots according to CFOSP. I do beleive the standard is still 100mm group size while firing from 100 meters.