Aussies pay 545 million canadian for Abrams, where'd our 1.5 billion go?

[JasonH]

Sounds like they were surplus Abrams that the US had lying around.  Weren't some countries in Europe looking to offload extra Leopard 2's a bit earlier, or am I just imagining things again?

They were new, off the production line.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

It is kinda like the hub-bub over Airbus and their plans to co produce the Airbus A320 narrow body airliner in China. Quite a few pundits are screaming bloody murder that the Chinese will copy the design, but forgetting that the Airbus A320 airliner design is around 20 years old. By the time the Chinese acutally produce a copy, the design will be 30 years old and out of date because Airbus is developing a replacement.

Totally disagree.  It's one thing for the Chinese to get a copy of something and then have to reverse engineer all the parts.  It's another thing altogether when you show them how to set-up the manufacturing facility, provide them copies of all your manufacturing equipment (that they can then reverse engineer and copy), and provide access to all your design systems and designs which they will undoubtedly copy, steal and begin producing themselves. 

Example:  SU-27 vs J-11.

This is a Russian Su-27P (Su-30):

This is a Chinese J-11:

Bottom Line:  I'd be screaming bloody murder too.  Until these guys recognize an IP patent, I'd be telling them to pound salt.



Matthew. 

 

[Armymatters]

Totally disagree.  It's one thing for the Chinese to get a copy of something and then have to reverse engineer all the parts.  It's another thing altogether when you show them how to set-up the manufacturing facility, provide them copies of all your manufacturing equipment (that they can then reverse engineer and copy), and provide access to all your design systems and designs which they will undoubtedly copy, steal and begin producing themselves. 

Example:  SU-27 vs J-11.

This is a Russian Su-27P (Su-30):

This is a Chinese J-11:

Bottom Line:  I'd be screaming bloody murder too.  Until these guys recognize an IP patent, I'd be telling them to pound salt.



Matthew. 

The J-11 is a licensed produced copy of the Sukhoi Su-27. Under the 1996 agreement between Shenyang Aircraft Industry Company (SAC) and Sukhoi, China would build 200 J-11/Su-27SK fighters, initially using Russian supplied kits and later with greater indigenous contents. Apparantly, the Chinese have not exercised all of their options for the full 200 that were licensed. Note the word licensed, meaning that the copy was authorized by the original manufacturer.

And if the Chinese wanted to copy an airliner, the Chinese would have done so already. With the Airbus jet I mentioned, there are litterally hundreds of them in China already in service with various airlines. The Chinese can just take a few, plus the repair manuals, and copy them.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

The J-11 is a licensed produced copy of the Sukhoi Su-27. Under the 1996 agreement between Shenyang Aircraft Industry Company (SAC) and Sukhoi, China would build 200 J-11/Su-27SK fighters, initially using Russian supplied kits and later with greater indigenous contents. Apparantly, the Chinese have not exercised all of their options for the full 200 that were licensed. Note the word licensed, meaning that the copy was authorized by the original manufacturer.

And if the Chinese wanted to copy an airliner, the Chinese would have done so already. With the Airbus jet I mentioned, there are litterally hundreds of them in China already in service with various airlines. The Chinese can just take a few, plus the repair manuals, and copy them.

Initial versions were from Russian Kits and are designated as J-11A.  The plan is to produce their own unlicensed versions designed J-11B/J-11C incrementally increasing the Chinese-content.  Specifically, they have flight-tested the WS-10A engine (based on stolen designs) and one of their software geeks broke the code to the original Russian radar so they can now reproduce both software and hardware for that component as well.  There are additional reports they are in the process of copying the associated Russian weaponry as well....

In short, anything you give them, they will copy and steal....period, end-of-sentence, full-stop.


Matthew. 

 

[Armymatters]

Initial versions were from Russian Kits and are designated as J-11A.  The plan is to produce their own unlicensed versions designed J-11B/J-11C incrementally increasing the Chinese-content.  Specifically, they have flight-tested the WS-10A engine (based on stolen designs) and one of their software geeks broke the code to the original Russian radar so they can now reproduce both software and hardware for that component as well.  There are additional reports they are in the process of copying the associated Russian weaponry as well....

In short, anything you give them, they will copy and steal....period, end-of-sentence, full-stop.


Matthew. 

1. The licensed was stopped by the Chinese in 2004, after less than 100 were built. The Chinese were apparantly unhappy with some of the features of the SU-27, as the Chinese especially wanted the fighter jets be equipped with guided anti-ship missiles. However, this model of Sukhoi jets were not designed to attack targets at sea.

2. The WS-10A engine is experiencing a lot of trouble technically. The Chinese are not used to producing turbofan engines, and so the engine technology is somewhat new to them (they have a license for the old Rolls Royce Spey turbofan ngines apparantly). It has gotten to the point where the WS-10A engine was apparantly dumped for a improved Russian engine, the Lyulka-Saturn AL-31FN on the J-11 (not the Russian built jets, as they have the AL-31F engines).

3. The new Chinese radars are meant for the Chinese to use indigienous weapons. Currently, the Sukhoi jets cannot use Chinese weapons, as the software and the avionics are not programmed for Chinese weapons. The Chinese wish to use Chinese weapons on the jets over Russian weapons. All of the upgrades the Chinese have done to the jets are apparantly approved between Sukhoi and SAC.

4. I have seen some of the new airborne weapons to come out of China since the license production. Believe it or not, most of the weapons are acutally either Western-inspired (the Chinese designed LGB looks remarkably similar to the American Paveway LGB's), or Israeli inspired.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from Armymatters,
I have seen some of the new airborne weapons to come out of China since the license production


Where?

 

[Armymatters]

Quote from Armymatters,
I have seen some of the new airborne weapons to come out of China since the license production


Where?

Easy: I packed my bags in late 2004 to head to the 5th Zhuhai Air Show. There was a TON of Chinese equipment there, wish I had a digital camera. I can pass myself easily as a Chinese national because I am Chinese Canadian, and speak perfect Mandarin. I suggest you pack your bags and wait for the 2006 Moscow Air Show, the Chinese usually has a presence there, and usually, some arms deal between the Russians and the Chinese are announced there.

 

[chanman]

stuff like that? http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/weapon/guided_bomb.asp

If you look down under J-11B and J-11C http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j11.asp, that might be what you were thinking about wrt domestic production - notice the prediction of another 10 years to indigenise what sounds like a basic Su-27 and the note on powerplant problems.

- If they were able to make their own planes to a passable standard, then it seems kind of odd they'd go and buy another 100 Su-30MKKs


Back on track - it looks like the last new hulls GD built would be 77 M1A2's for the US Army and the Saudi and Kuwaiti M1A2 orders.