Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working

[Journeyman]

The only reason I'm skeptical of this statement is that the argument that the current generation is less suited for military service old and repeated by every generation. 

I would agree.....except...

I'd argue that there has been a massive societal shift from my having grown up, playing outside constantly, and a generation that sits at a computer for their entertainment.  Also, it's brutal seeing the level of literacy of these supposed high school graduates, which would have been painfully addressed (literally) by my school teaching grandmother.

:dunno:

 

[McG]

I think it is fair to say that every generation is different than the ones preceding it (and some are more different than others). “Different” always includes both better and worse (but there is a tendency for older generations to see the worse more clearly).

If the current generation is substantially different than its predecessors, then maybe the officer production system also needs to be different to accommodate the new “production materiel”.

 

[Gunner98]

I think it is fair to say that every generation is different than the ones preceding it (and some are more different than others). “Different” always includes both better and worse (but there is a tendency for older generations to see the worse more clearly).

If the current generation is substantially different than its predecessors, then maybe the officer production system also needs to be different to accommodate the new “production materiel”.

I think the current generation's needs have to be addressed not only at RMC but all training establishments.  Isn't that why the CAF created the TDO occupation, which of course was filled with some of our brightest minds :sarcasm:

 

[Remius]

Entitlement is likely the biggest difference in North American/western society.  The concept of starting at the bottom and working your way up, actually failing at something and learning from it, the need for instant gratification, how easily anything can be replaced rather than be repaired or recycled, or how you can just move to something else if you don't like what you are doing now, etc etc etc.

My grandparents lived through a depression and a world war.  My parents grew up with those hard lessons learned from theirs and benefited from their hard work and strived to make their kids' lives easier.  The kids of those kids have a carefree attitude mostly because their parents never faced real adversity so they never even witnessed it.


 

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I would not damn this generation wholesale.

I have two boys in their early 20's. I got engaged with their sport activities (Hockey for one, curling of the other) and their friends. While there is a big difference in their level of physical activities compared to my generation (but then again, what else were we going to do with our time?), I found that their attitude towards the world, hard work and reaching for higher objectives is not that much different from ours. it is just expressed differently because of the social/virtual environment they live in.

I'd like to ask the Senior NCO's and Warrants out here (PO & CPO of us naval people): Do you think the young tradespeople you have seen lately are less willing to work hard and learn than say ten years ago? I bet the answer is: no.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'd like to ask the Senior NCO's and Warrants out here (PO & CPO of us naval people): Do you think the young tradespeople you have seen lately are less willing to work hard and learn than say ten years ago? I bet the answer is: no.

Overall, I would have to say 'yes' but...I've also changed trades and environments.  I find they are generally less disciplined (i.e. "do the right thing, the right way, at the right time, even when no one is looking") and more mentally fragile than when I was that age and in uniform.  They tend to see themselves "ill treated" for no reason, and don't seem to grasp the concept of "not everyone is equal"...because we aren't, not when we are doing the business a military does.  When I was a Cpl/Tpr I didn't expect the same...professional liberties a Sgt or WO got.  Not so much today, IMO.

That is a very general, overall answer from what I've seen over the past decade.  In 2007 I was on staff at CFLRS, today I am the immediate superior to a handful of fairly young Avr's and Cpl's who are recent products of the training systems in the RCAF.

 

[Loachman]

A bit cynical, but none-the-less accurate. I remember a nice bit of renovations and construction at CFS St. John's right up to the day they flattened the place and made an armories.

Brand-new hospital in Lahr...

 

[dapaterson]

New CFSME and 1 CER facilities at Chilliwack...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

$11 million all-ranks mess in Summerside...

 

[Underway]

Not faster.  DEO remains much faster from enrol to OFP.

That is true, but ROTP Civi U to ROTP milcol is what we are comparing here.  DEO is an entirely different and cheaper option for the military.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

DEO is an entirely different and cheaper option for the military.

There. THAT should ensure that the only Officers the CAF gets from here on in are thru DEO.    ;D

 

[McG]

That is true, but ROTP Civi U to ROTP milcol is what we are comparing here.  DEO is an entirely different and cheaper option for the military.

You are situating the estimate.  Maybe we don’t need ROTP of any sort?  If DEO with a big signing bonous can be both cheaper and as effective, they why have ROTP?

 

[Strike]

You are situating the estimate.  Maybe we don’t need ROTP of any sort?  If DEO with a big signing bonous can be both cheaper and as effective, they why have ROTP?

Because then you are then also eliminating all those who would not be in a position to pay for their post-secondary education for whatever reason.  Either they don't qualify for enough bursaries or scholarships and/or they are in that grey zone where their parents make too much to allow them to qualify for government aid like OSAP but not enough to pay for schooling.

Not trying to start a debate about how they can get loans like DEOs did.  Just using this as an example.  With ROTP you get someone starting their military career without having to worry about the mountains of debt that can result from a post-secondary education and so they have one less thing to worry about.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Because then you are then also eliminating all those who would not be in a position to pay for their post-secondary education for whatever reason.  Either they don't qualify for enough bursaries or scholarships and/or they are in that grey zone where their parents make too much to allow them to qualify for government aid like OSAP but not enough to pay for schooling.

Not trying to start a debate about how they can get loans like DEOs did.  Just using this as an example.  With ROTP you get someone starting their military career without having to worry about the mountains of debt that can result from a post-secondary education and so they have one less thing to worry about.

I mean ROTP through a civilian university is still a thing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Because then you are then also eliminating all those who would not be in a position to pay for their post-secondary education for whatever reason.  Either they don't qualify for enough bursaries or scholarships and/or they are in that grey zone where their parents make too much to allow them to qualify for government aid like OSAP but not enough to pay for schooling.

Not trying to start a debate about how they can get loans like DEOs did.  Just using this as an example.  With ROTP you get someone starting their military career without having to worry about the mountains of debt that can result from a post-secondary education and so they have one less thing to worry about.

Right, it's just the mountains of debt from bad car loans and giant mess bills they'll have to worry about

 

[Infanteer]

Because then you are then also eliminating all those who would not be in a position to pay for their post-secondary education for whatever reason.

If the DND needs to be in the tuition subsidization business, there are easier ways to do it than running its own university.

 

[CountDC]

Overall, I would have to say 'yes' but...I've also changed trades and environments.  I find they are generally less disciplined (i.e. "do the right thing, the right way, at the right time, even when no one is looking") and more mentally fragile than when I was that age and in uniform.  They tend to see themselves "ill treated" for no reason, and don't seem to grasp the concept of "not everyone is equal"...because we aren't, not when we are doing the business a military does.  When I was a Cpl/Tpr I didn't expect the same...professional liberties a Sgt or WO got.  Not so much today, IMO.

That is a very general, overall answer from what I've seen over the past decade.  In 2007 I was on staff at CFLRS, today I am the immediate superior to a handful of fairly young Avr's and Cpl's who are recent products of the training systems in the RCAF.

I have to agree.  I see so much sense of entitlement that wasn't there in the past, crying every time someone says something they don't like and orders them to do something.

Why are so many Generals RMC grads - because they are part of the ring knockers club which takes care of their own?  ie Johnny you are not as good as Ralph but hey you got the ring so I am giving you a higher PER?  just a possible guess as I really can't thing of any other reason right now because I don't see anything else to make them stand out but have seen the club banding at some events.

 

[Strike]

If the DND needs to be in the tuition subsidization business, there are easier ways to do it than running its own university.

I was referring more to the thoughts of ROTP being eliminated.

 

[Lumber]

I have to agree.  I see so much sense of entitlement that wasn't there in the past, crying every time someone says something they don't like and orders them to do something.

Why are so many Generals RMC grads - because they are part of the ring knockers club which takes care of their own?  ie Johnny you are not as good as Ralph but hey you got the ring so I am giving you a higher PER? just a possible guess as I really can't thing of any other reason right now because I don't see anything else to make them stand out but have seen the club banding at some events.

I can assure you this does NOT happen.

RMC grads all KNOW each other; not all RMC grads LIKE each other.

What's far more likely is two officers are friends, but one is ahead of the other, and the senior one gives his friend higher PER scores, or fights harder for him on the merit board. This nepotism has nothing to do with the two of them coming from RMC; it's far more likely they did their subbie tour together and got sh*t faced on George street together.

I personally think the reason there are a larger portion of RMC grads at the top (compared to DEO and civi-U) is because we attend RMC in our formative adult years, and it builds into us a real sense of belonging and ownership over this organization. The idea that we are "soldiers" vice civilians who are working a job as soliders is stronger within RMC grads than it is with the rest. It's not that RMC grads are in any way better that civi-U grads, we're just more invested.

:2c:

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . .  we're just more invested.

Oh, I thought the bottom line of the OAG report was that "Canada had more invested in RMC types" and hadn't seen a comparable return on that additional investment.