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Arty to assume the DFS role?

Infanteer

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Zipper said:
Kirkhill said:
How about that GDLS LAV/Denel 105 with the 30+ km range that the Americans trialled? Not an option for you?

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21166.0.html

Wow. Very nice. Get rid of the MGS in favour of that. Or put it down to 90mm and call it a sp and still give it to the Arty.

I'm not sure why you'd give an Self-Propelled Gun to the Arty - it is supposed to be a direct fire weapon.

Anyways, all of this doesn't matter, since we are moving to PBI's "Single Branch Combat Arm" anyways.... :p
 
Why not? Arty started out and remained direct fire until WWI. They had direct fire AT during WWII. The Jagdpanzer's were SP and crewed by the Arty. It seems to be only recently that Arty is considered over the horizon.



 
Zipper:

I think the Denel SPH and the MGS are pretty much apples and oranges.  The SPH has as much in common with the MGS as the M109 has with the Leopard.  One is a low velocity howitzer that can be used in direct fire mode, the other is a high velocity rifle that can ONLY be used in direct fire, or at least low angle.

But on general principle, if the MGS, TUA/MMEV, AMOS and SPHs of this world are all really there just to supply fire support then, as you say there is no reason why the couldn't be arty tasks.  As you said there is plenty of historical precedent.

The RCHA started out doing direct fire support for the cavalry with 9 pounders and 13 pounders.  The RCA handled 17 pounder anti-tank guns in Anti-Tank Regiments during WWII.  The Royal Artillery squabbled with the Armoured Corps (and lost) over who should man the Striker - Swingfire vehicles for the British Army.  And indirect fire support is what they have always done.  So, as you say, why not turn all the Fire Support assets over to the RCHA operating in support of the Cavalry.

It has a very Boer War sense to it.. :D

Cheers.

 
Thanks. Its nice to see I talk some (small) sense around here. :p

After thinking about, I agree. The SPH is very different.

I still question the MGS. Do we need it? The proposed way they are setting up the DFS (Strats) unit right now makes it look like a tank replacement. Which it is not.

And if we go over to Cav. (which I highly doubt), we have the TUA and MMEV still on the books to supply fire support. Unless they are thinking the the MGS is strictly a bunker buster for infantry support?

I don't know.

I'm going to sigh again...
 
I don't know if this is why they have done it this way but I can think of one reason why I might have done it the way they have.

To develop common tactics and procedures, with a relatively small equipment set and close to the new WES range so that they can test out some of their theories.  Now, once I had things sussed I might be inclined to reallocate the DFS roles and the Recce roles and create 3 identical Regiments again.  But that's just me.

As for the utility of a high velocity, rapid firing rifle on the battlefield in direct support... has anybody ever turned down any type of fire support if it was offered to them?
 
Kirkhill said:
To develop common tactics and procedures, with a relatively small equipment set and close to the new WES range so that they can test out some of their theories.   Now, once I had things sussed I might be inclined to reallocate the DFS roles and the Recce roles and create 3 identical Regiments again.   But that's just me.

As for the utility of a high velocity, rapid firing rifle on the battlefield in direct support... has anybody ever turned down any type of fire support if it was offered to them?

This is fine, and I wouldn't turn down fire support of any kind. But to change the tasking of an entire regiment to test a theory? Especially a theory with a as yet unproven platform? Hardly my idea of wise use of resources. Not to mention to change the taskings of 3 regiments with one test piece just to change all three again in a short time? Doesn't make sense.

What ever happened to testing and approving pieces of equipment before changing your entire TTP's? What happens if the Americans decide the thing doesn't work and drop it?
 
In the mean time all the tanks are concentrated in one regiment. 

And trying out new ways of operating.
 
It is interesting listening to ideas of having arty do direct fire support (they did in WW2 and esentially thats what they did pre-1900)..

Maybe first step is to look at the combat functions
they are

* Manoeuver
* Sustainment
* Firepower
* Info Operations
* Protection
* Command

In our army they are divided as
Manoeuver (Armour and Infantry)
Sustainment (I beleive service battalions)
Firepower (artillery)
Info ops (kind of everybody is involved in ISTAR but Recce SQN main area)
Protection (Sappers)
Command (Sigs and all the command structures are involved here)

So maybe having direct fire support batteries (MGS Battery, TUA Battery and MMEV Battery would be a good idea).
This would leave armour free to master the art of Armoured Cavalry (Mobility, Reconnaissance, Lethality, quick reaction, Flank security, etc)
 
DFS is an integral part of Maneuver.  A 120mm gun on a tank is Direct Fire Support.  You can't move without suppressing the enemy.
 
Direct Fire Support IS an integral part of Maneuver.    
That is why the Horse Artillery was attached to Cavalry Brigades, which also included Dragoons or Mounted Infantry.

A 120mm gun on a tank IS Direct Fire Support.  
But it is also much more.   It is a manoeuvre element on its own, unlike the Horse Artillery.   In some respects the MGS does harken back to the days of the RHA gunners, serving their guns within rifleshot of the Boers and protected only by a light metal gun-shield for the layers.

You CAN'T move without suppressing the enemy.
The only questions are who is going to do the suppressing and with what these days.   Such a vast array of choices - machine guns to tactical nukes.   Which Corps belongs to which trigger or button.

 
ArmyRick said:
Maybe first step is to look at the combat functions
they are

* Manoeuver
* Sustainment
* Firepower
* Info Operations
* Protection
* Command
It does not make sense to build units around territorially protected cbt functions.  Many units actually perform a spectrum to the cbt functions for the higher formation.  Engr did protection, sustainment, info ops, and manoeuvre (by giving the freedom to move to the manoeuvre arms). Many functions required the contribution of a variety of force elements.  "Protection" was provided by Engr, Air Def, MP, and Recce.  Lastly, everything on the battlefield needed to have those cbt functions considered in its structure in order to survive and to perform its "collective cbt function" for the higher force.

Besides, we've stopped using those in favour of Command, Sense, Act, Shield, and Sustain.  Act includes, but is not limited to, manoeuvre and firepower.
 
I don't see what the argument is? Who cares if the Armour or Artillery has the MGS or DFS or not? There are good reasons for either.

The way I look at it is if the Armoured take on the Cavalry role, which is not certain, then they will need to concentrate on that alone and not be having to learn Infantry dismount tatics, driver, gunner in Turret, CC for calavalry, etc. Plus learning to fire the MGS, TUA, MMEV. Way to many things.

Let the RCHA/Air defense boys who have lost their M-109's take on the DFS roll, and let the Armoured do the Cavalry thing while the Infantry go to Light. Then we have a nice rounded out force that can respond to any and all deployments asked of us.

As well, if we are going over to all arms regiments, then why not just let those who know their jobs stick with them? Its all moot.

If we do not go over to all arms, then it becomes a discussion on who has it.
 
Zipper said:
As well, if we are going over to all arms regiments, then why not just let those who know their jobs stick with them? Its all moot.

If we do not go over to all arms, then it becomes a discussion on who has it.
More of a turf war pissing contest.  Exactly the reason we need to go to an all arms regiment.  Then we stop these discusions of who should have what toy, and we focus on the important question of where does said "toy" need to be on the battlefield in order to best achieve the mission.  Protected branch territories have no place in defining doctrine.
 
MCG said:
More of a turf war pissing contest.   Exactly the reason we need to go to an all arms regiment.   Then we stop these discusions of who should have what toy, and we focus on the important question of where does said "toy" need to be on the battlefield in order to best achieve the mission.   Protected branch territories have no place in defining doctrine.

Sounds good to me - the Refrigeration Techs can man the DFS vehicle for all I care, as long as they are incorparated into a cohesive and tactically sound combined arms unit.

Moving along now....
 
I don't see necessarily a Corps based turf war.

I like the All-Arms Regiment.

I also like the notion that there are specialists in particular fields.

So, as I was suggesting to McG, in a Cavalry Regiment you would have graduates of the Infantry School  and the Armoured School combined into a Regiment independent of either school.  Likewise the Regiment would incorporate gunners as members of the Regiment, trained at the Artillery School.  Similarly with the Engineers and Service Support.

A Light Infantry force would likewise be an all arms force - permanent or ad hoc I know not.

Now as you move back out of the Regiments we may find Independent single Arms Regiments, especially amongst the Engineers and Service Support as well as the Artillery.  Although I believe that there would be a role in the organisation for the Artillery and Transport Regiments to have a high ratio of Reserve Sub-units handling firing duties and driving trucks.  Those Reg/Res Units would be single branch units.  As would Reserve Infantry and Armoured or Recce sub-units.

So this is not by way of creating empires, but concentrating skill sets - individuals and dets to sub-units trained by the Branches but employed by the Manoeuvre Regiments.
 
Personally, I would like to see the MGS (or whatever system eventually replaces both it and our indirect system...) operated by the Direct Fire Support sub-unit integral to a Cbt Branch Unit. But, remember my caveat-the Cbt Branch article was predicated on several assumptions, one of which was that heavier combat systems have gone the way of the dodo for us. If we are actually going to structure and equip the separate Cbt Arms such that they can each bring something unique and powerful to the battlespace: fine. If not, then stop worrying about what branch does what and treat DF, IF, etc as skill sets to be taught to soldiers.

I still feel, as I have felt for quite a while before I ever thought of writing the article, that the forward march of technology is blurring the distinction between IF and DF and will eventually remove it, while bringing us systems similar to MLRS which has, I am told, a much lower training threshhold than tube gunnery (Yes-thanks--I do realize the difference between splattering a grid square and striking a target more precisely...). The later versions of MLRS have improved accuracy for individual projectiles: it is IMHO only a matter of time before there is a practical and affordable system on the market that does both IF and DF equally well. Remember, even a weapon system as simple as the GPMG can (and has been..) used in both direct and indirect roles, so the concept of dual purpose is a long established one.

Cheers
 
The DFS Regiment will be the best thing to ever happen to the CF.  Throw away the black beret rhetoric Arty/Infantry chants, and let's get on with it.  We are taking the experts and putting them into a single combined Regiment.  I will admit the air defence is a little behind in the DF concept due to fact that we have never really trained for it, but come another year or two we will be right up there with the LDSH and PPCLI guys within the DFS. Let's get rid of the trades..have one beret, one cap badge.
 
Birdgunnesrule (Funny your screen name contradicts your thoughts)..

It will be interesting to see if we do just that with Hillier at the helm.

As a mid dog (too little time to be an old dog) I am both scared and welcoming of a new combat arms branch.  ???

I beleive in the long run it will work better for us.


Lets watch and see what happens...
 
Some little problems with the DFS concept. All arms aside, as it is an idea that I think is coming and may just work (as all arms regiments).

Only 1 regiment is being made DFS, which means there is no chance of deployment sustainablity.

Also, the whole concept of having a layered approach is rather interesting. Since we seem to be trying to move to a "light" more rapid style of formation, then why bog yourself down with a DFS type of unit that has to take time to set itself up properly to be effective?

Having the ADATS as a component of your layered approach means that you have to spend the time setting the thing up to fire, by which time if your lucky to have perfect terrain, your mechanized forces will have probably moved to the outter range of your effective fire. In which case, you then have to break it down again to move. All taking time and slowing down your ulitmate mobility.

If you don't have perfect terrain, which is the majority of what will be operated in, then you won't have time to set it up anyway before your forward elements have moved behind a terrain feature.

Of course considering the problems with ADATS (300,000+ per shot being just one), we may be going to a entirely different system anyway.

So is it actually the best thing that has ever happened to the military? I think not.
 
Zipper said:
Some little problems with the DFS concept. All arms aside, as it is an idea that I think is coming and may just work (as all arms regiments).

Only 1 regiment is being made DFS, which means there is no chance of deployment sustainablity.

Now you are entering into another topic; the problems that are plaguing the "PLUG N PLAY" concept being put into effect by the wizards at NDHQ.

GW
 
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