Armd Recce Reserves on Deployment: Soldiers or Fillers

[ASLT TPR]

I think that General Hillier must have a plan to employ the reserves. As for not enough Coyotes to go around I have to agree. I am at the school and every course that we support it gets harder and harder to keep the vehicles up and running long enough to finish the course.It all comes down to money and lack of it. I feel that we should of kept the old Cougar for the reserves to train on. Then the could keep up on there skills with it. As far as running courses thats not the hard part its keeping current enough to use your skills that is the hard part.But who knows maybe with time everything will work out. Ya never know.

 

[Love793]

And my point, in brief, is that as the theatre evolves there may be a demand for those skills.  For certain TFs it has been decided that we will not be deploying recce sqns , but rather surveillance sqns.  That means reduced Reserve augmentation.  Once we start sending over recce tps and recce sqns there will be a call for more reserve augmentation (indeed, a requirement for more reserve augmentation). 

Define please a Surv Sqn.  Surveillance is a Recce Task.  A task that Coyote is very well suited for.  Are you referring to a Reg (Coyote)Recce Sqn, verus a Reserve (Mud)Recce Sqn?

 

[George Wallace]

So? Time spent in training is seldom wasted. Even if a qualification was never granted, the experience gained is still a net positive. And maybe the Qualification Gods can be convinced to consider a situation like this to be a "conversion course" and grant the qualification anyway.

The aim of the exercise is to get people trained. If it takes thinking out of the box, then so be it - the important part is getting people trained and experienced as much as possible.

You haven't been listening.  The "Great Qualification Gods", as you call them, are not allowing that.  I was on Coyote Gunnery with a Capt, a SSM, and three other Sgts in my Crew.  All of us qualified on Tank, Lynx and most on Cougar.  Our Crew did the same training, and more, as the rest of the Coyote Gunnery Crse.  No Conversion Crses allowed.  Even the LCol and the Regimental 2 i/c had to have a Gnry Crse.  I am not pulling this crap out of the air, that is the way it is now.  Combined with all Crew Commanders having to do Refresher Trg at least twice a year on the Misfire Drills.  It is a Corps Directive.  If it is policy that even Reg Force Cols and Majors have to do this course, what are the chances of a Reserve Capt or Lt getting a "By" on it?

Ask anyone on Coyotes, and I am positive they will tell you that the Corps is taking the Misfire Drills on the Coyote a lot more serious than what it did with the Cougars and Leopards.  There are no shortcuts anymore.

 

[ZipperHead]

And my point, in brief, is that as the theatre evolves there may be a demand for those skills.  For certain TFs it has been decided that we will not be deploying recce sqns , but rather surveillance sqns.  That means reduced Reserve augmentation.  Once we start sending over recce tps and recce sqns there will be a call for more reserve augmentation (indeed, a requirement for more reserve augmentation). 

Define please a Surv Sqn.  Surveillance is a Recce Task.  A task that Coyote is very well suited for.  Are you referring to a Reg (Coyote)Recce Sqn, verus a Reserve (Mud)Recce Sqn?

I believe that the reason the term "Surveillance Sqn" is used is to differentiate between a "normal" Recce Sqn, and one equipped with a Surveillance suite (in other words, the Coyote). The commanders on the ground (or in the air, I suppose) want instant, real time information, which, when all the equipment (I suppose IF is more the operative word here) is in place (a radio "uplink" of the data being received via the radar, TI or day camera), the Task Force commander could be seeing what 41D's surveillance system is looking at (a rioting crowd, an illegal police check-point, a weapon's system that is in violation of a cease-fire agreement, etc) with little or no delay, and form his plan from that information. The day's of an OP report being written in a FMP, handed off to the Tp Ldr, him passing off to the LO, the LO taking it onwards and upwards, etc, etc will be nothing more than a quaint memory one day: "You're shitting me Warrant!!! You used to have to WRITE an OP report!!! Talk about the stone-ages!!!".

One of the guys that did Cambrian Patrol with the Strats a few years back told me a telling story: he thought that they were being "high tech" by taking a picture with a digital camera of the objective, versus sketching it, or describing it in words. The judges/umpires weren't overly impressed by that, as nowadays real-time information is what counts, not a 3 hr old (or much older) digital picture of the objective.

Of course, we have to maintain the skills to go low-tech, as everyone knows that computers, electronic equipment, etc craps out at the most inopportune time. But the mentality shouldn't be "What if it doesn't work?!?", but "What if it does work?" and train that way.

Where does that leave "mud recce"??? Maybe an analogy of the Polish cavalry vs the German Blitzkrieg is a bit of a stretch, but maybe closer to the truth than any of us want to believe. I'll put it this way: how many people here write letters to someone, versus sending an email? Or get their news from the internet rather than reading a newspaper? They each have their place, but look for a carriage maker in the phone book. Probably won't find many.

Al

 

[muskrat89]

I'll put it this way: how many people here write letters to someone, versus sending an email? Or get their news from the internet rather than reading a newspaper? They each have their place, but look for a carriage maker in the phone book. Probably won't find many.

A brief hijack - I heard on the news the other day that after 100 years+ of sending telegrams, Western Union has stopped. It is interesting that telegrams were such a part of history, yet faded away with little fanfare. From The Western Union website:

Effective January 27, 2006, Western Union will discontinue all Telegram and Commercial Messaging services. We regret any inconvenience this may cause you, and we thank you for your loyal patronage.

Sorry, but it just seemed (distantly) pertinent to what AL said..  :warstory:

 

[KevinB]

Well I can tell you that with 33 days of training that once qualified in a LAVIII -- I would take a black hat reservist in that job over a Infantry reg force soldier...

After I got my CC/G course I fired once (during predeployment) prior to going to Afghan -- yeah I was not a primary but I ended up both CC and G ing overseas due to the HLTA period...

  Now over 50% of the crews where the same way.

I would rather have a part time crew that coudl be borught to speed on pre-dep...

 

[Maybee]

This has been an interesting thread. I too am a PRES Armd Recce guy (with no wheels at the moment). I have deployed operationally twice and hope to go again (big green machine willing). Both times I filled in an infantry line serial, in part because I had few or none of the skills that the RCD were in need of.
My question is:
Why aren't reservists offered the opportunity to jump onto the QL4 courses that are run in the 4-6 months pre-deployment training period? In front of both deployments there were certainly fairly long stretches (3-4 weeks) where it seemed that we had 'nothing' to do. Serials were being run...HLVW Dvr, air brake, etc. So why not seize that opportunity and train reservists on the Reg Kit?
I suspect that the answer is resources (Instrs, vehs, ammo, etc). Can anyone confirm that for me? Or is it that I was just with two BGs that were a bit chaotic in their workup training approach?
Last point:
I sincerely doubt that I (and my guys) could bring more to the table then the Recce PL from one of the Battalions in terms of skills, experience, etc. But having a troop of PRES mud recce frees up that valuable Recce PL asset for more high value tasks...That would be my arguement for taking a PRES sub-sub unit (or sub unit for that matter) on Deployment. Cheers!

 

[George Wallace]

My question is:
Why aren't reservists offered the opportunity to jump onto the QL4 courses that are run in the 4-6 months pre-deployment training period? In front of both deployments there were certainly fairly long stretches (3-4 weeks) where it seemed that we had 'nothing' to do. Serials were being run...HLVW Dvr, air brake, etc. So why not seize that opportunity and train reservists on the Reg Kit?

I suspect that the answer is resources (Instrs, vehs, ammo, etc). Can anyone confirm that for me? Or is it that I was just with two BGs that were a bit chaotic in their workup training approach?

That is a question that you will have to ask your Unit.  How much money have they in their Budget to conduct that training?

Last point:
I sincerely doubt that I (and my guys) could bring more to the table then the Recce PL from one of the Battalions in terms of skills, experience, etc. But having a troop of PRES mud recce frees up that valuable Recce PL asset for more high value tasks...That would be my arguement for taking a PRES sub-sub unit (or sub unit for that matter) on Deployment. Cheers!

You will have to recognize that you both do different types of Recce (as you alluded to in your comment) and at this time their style of Recce is what is currently the most in demand.

 

[Maybee]

Thanks Mr Wallace for the reply. I think that you may have misunderstood the first question. Since I was an augmentee to the Battle Group would they not be the Unit responsible for funding the QL4 and other continuation training? Technically I was holding down a line serial in the battalion with which I was deployed....so wouldn't they be responsible?

As to the other question I guess my follow up question is: Isn't Recce being done in G Wagon? Maybe not by the Armour guys...but by somebody?
Cheers!

 

[Q.Y. Ranger]

I know that the G Wagon's are be used in Afghanistan. Aren't they being used for things such as patrols. If the Reg. Force recce units are using heavier vehicles, who is using the G Wagon's. Wouldn't Res. Recce soldiers be qualified to use them. Just curious.

Mike

 

[George Wallace]

Thanks Mr Wallace for the reply. I think that you may have misunderstood the first question. Since I was an augmentee to the Battle Group would they not be the Unit responsible for funding the QL4 and other continuation training? Technically I was holding down a line serial in the battalion with which I was deployed....so wouldn't they be responsible?

As to the other question I guess my follow up question is: Isn't Recce being done in G Wagon? Maybe not by the Armour guys...but by somebody?
Cheers!

It is not the responsibility of the Battle Group to run QL4 Crses for Reservists.  It is their responsibility to ensure that they select the properly trained personnel to go with them on Tour and to conduct the 'specific to task' training that will be required of those troops.

The answers about the G Wagens that you and M. Sparks are asking, have already been dwelt upon and answered already.

(Just a note for M. Sparks - SEARCH.....I just found your question on why isn't there any Air Force in Afghanistan, and again it has already been dwelt upon and answered by several people.)

 

[Maybee]

Ok I get it. I agree with you from a procedural point of view. My point was that people in the Battle Group were being coursed (Reg F guys) in order to get them up to spec for the deployment. Why then not include some reserve soldiers on those same courses? Since they are being run anyways does the arguement that reservists have to be trained up on the kit not hold water?
Or do I have that wrong? Does a Reg F Armd Recce (Surv) Sqn conduct QL4 crses during a work up period?
With Regard to the G Wagon thing apologies for rehashing...seems to be relevant to the discussion however.

 

[George Wallace]

You are not listening or not privy to the facts, one or the other.  As a Reservist, you are paid/funded out of your Unit Budget.  The Regular Force works the same way.  They have a Training Budget with which to train their own troops.  If your Unit doesn't budget for that training, you don't get it.

As I said before: "Ask your Unit about what their plans are to use their Budget on Training."  "They will tell you."

As for rehashing a question over and over; we have had a problem or two with posters who have become quite an annoyance and could not take the answers that were given.  No matter how many times you feel that you need to ask the question, does not make any difference in what the answer is.  The answer will not change.  The people giving the answer will change; and you will not like it. 

 

[Unknown C/S]

George,

I believe R Maybee did not understand the answer. I don't feel he is being difficult, only naive. I have faith the notion has crystalized to him.

Sometimes reserve unit upper echelon pers do not fully brief members (due to a number of factors) and answers are hard to accept when one is unaware

R Maybee,

  The call up generally means they take you as you are trained. units have enough trouble fitting in their own people in and getting all members qualified to fit the unit needs (all this between rotations/ workup training / taskings/ normal duties / leave and accounting for postings/ attrition

But there is a need for reserve augmentation, certainly keen ones


Sorry to jump in on a topic that has run it's course.......I could see frustration setting in

Unknown C/S.......out

 

[DG-41]

I do wonder why though, that when Reg Force courses are being run, if the course is short-manned, why that fact isn't advertised to Reserve units and the courses backfilled with Reservists.

I'd take time off to attend Coyote Gunnery if I was given the opportunity, and I'd have no problem finding other soldiers willing to drop everything (on short notice) and attend similar courses.

DG

 

[Bobbyoreo]

I think the problem comes from the unit itself not having the cash or not wanting to spend it. I've known of this happening.  :warstory:

 

[George Wallace]

I do wonder why though, that when Reg Force courses are being run, if the course is short-manned, why that fact isn't advertised to Reserve units and the courses backfilled with Reservists.

I'd take time off to attend Coyote Gunnery if I was given the opportunity, and I'd have no problem finding other soldiers willing to drop everything (on short notice) and attend similar courses.

DG

I am sure that some of us must have seen this happen from time to time.  I think the fault really falls into the 'system' and its' lack of timeliness.  Usually in a case like this example, the openings for the course are at the 'last minute' and by the time "Area" gets the msg, authorizes funding, and then sends out an 'instruction' to the various Units, the Crse has already started, or some cases finished.  I know there are even problems when Crses are announced well in advance, with the word getting to the Units requesting nominations from them.

 

[dapaterson]

George:

I'll say this again: the course calendar is posted in MITE, which all the G3 indiv trg folks can access.  LFDTS posts their course schedules a year in advance on the DIN.  The information is out there and available.  The timelines are known.  Reserve units (in LFCA and SQFT) are downloaded the funding for their individual training.

So any DIN user has access to course listings, CBGs can nominate pers to courses, and units have funding (that LFAA and LFWA hold the indiv trg funds centrally is a bit of a pet peeve), I fail to see where "the system" is at fault.  The system has provided the information and resources.  It's institutional inertia at the bottom levels that appears to be the stumbling block.

Yes, there can be problems with information flow from the National level to the Areas to the CBGs to the units.  Perhaps, with these nifty new computer-thingees, we could send the information directly to the units while info'ing Areas and CBGs.  Disintermediation on the downwards flow of information, while keeping the chain of command as the decision body on the upwards flow would probably make things more transparent ad efficient.  I suspect it might also make some staff redundant.

 

[DG-41]

Yeah, what is needed is some sort of system or process that:

1) Identified when courses could be backfilled

2) Cut an email to the unit training officer, adjutant, or even CO highlighting the fact that a spot was open and forward a nomination to XXX by YYY

At that point, it's up to the unit to identify (and fund?) potential candidates, and if they don't make use of it... that's their fault.

It'll probably have to be a "push" process, rather than a "pull" though; units are so strapped for admin pers that there's just not enough availible man-hours to go to websites and go looking for course openings.

DG

 

[George Wallace]

George:

I'll say this again: the course calendar is posted in MITE, which all the G3 indiv trg folks can access.  LFDTS posts their course schedules a year in advance on the DIN.  The information is out there and available.  The timelines are known.  Reserve units (in LFCA and SQFT) are downloaded the funding for their individual training.

I'm sorry, perhaps you may want to re-read my post. 

I don't deny what you have said.  What I said, is that in some cases, vacancies will appear on these Crses at the last minute, and there is no way that they can be filled by Reservists, as the others have asked, in a timely manner.  It is not the same as Regular Force Crses being run at the School, where if a person doesn't show up for a Crse, the School has the opportunity to parachute one of their own in to take their place.  Messages have to be sent out to the Area, approved and passed to the Units.  This done at the last minute to replace pers who, for one reason or another,  are not able to attend a Crse.  I am sure that they don't plan those "No Shows" a year in advance.