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Are vets benefits "overly generous"? (split from CDS to CTV)

Edward Campbell

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I'm going to try to be a bit of a contrarian.

I think the benefits voted for veterans of World War II and Korea were overly generous.

That's not surprising: in 1939 there were about 12,000,000 Canadians ~ of all ages, sexes and mental and physical capabilities ~ by 1945 over 1,000,000 of them had been in the Armed Services, most of them voluntarily. The overwhelming majority were youngish men, very ordinary young men, not from the educated elite, not from the richest families. They did their best, some paid an enormous price, and "we," the big collective "we" ~ those men and women, themselves, their parents and families and friends and neighbours ~ decided, collectively, that the benefits for those who served, not just those who were wounded, were going to be extraordinarily generous. "They deserve no less," we (big we, again) said to ourselves. And why not they were our sons and daughters, our brothers and sisters, our spouses, our friends and, indeed, they were "us,"

We, Canadians in general, drew a fairly sharp distinction between our professional soldiers, the peacetime regulars, and our brothers and sisters, sons and daughters who volunteered to serve for the duration of hostilities, as their contracts read, or "when we were needin' 'em, not feedin' em," as the vets, themselves said. That distinction has never disappeared.

In Afghanistan we - our bureaucrats and bean counters, anyway - learned a lesson from the 1960s: technology saves lives. Men who would, surely, have died on the Korean battlefield were now treated and airlifted to medical centres during the "golden hour" and the percentage of wounded who survived went up and up and up - and their treatment costs were going to last a lifetime, too. It was, still is, an accounting nightmare for a certain class of men and women who wear tasteful grey suits to work and who never, ever leave their comfortable offices.

Enter Albina Guarnieri who was Minister of Veterans' Affairs from 2004 until 2006 and who gave us the New Veterans' Charter. I don't think either Ms Guarnieri or Prime Minister Martin planned, explicitly, to shortchange wounded vets - but I do think that her Deputy Minister, the late Jack Stagg was fully conscious of the long term costs of veterans' benefits, and was keen to find a way to save some money.

Ms Guarnieri's successor, Conservative Minister Greg Thompson could have, and in my opinion should have, canned the Charter on one simple basis: one does not change horses in mid-stream. We were in a shooting war from 2002-2012, men were coming home in body bags and with grievous wounds, of all sorts; it was, still is, morally wrong to improve the benefits system while were were taking casualties.

But I want to reaffirm that, for all sorts of good political reasons, the benefits system Ms Guarnieri replaced with the New veterans' Charter was too generous.

So, even though the benefits structure that was in place when the Government of Canada committed (and then recommitted) Canadians to combat in Afghanistan is too generous, it should not be amended until we have got almost all of the CF "out of harm's way."
 
Sorry but...too generous?  For wounded vets, etc I don't believe a country can be 'too/overly generous'.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
..... for all sorts of good political reasons, the benefits system Ms Guarnieri replaced with the New veterans' Charter was too generous ....
Given your repeated (and, in my eyes, accurate) assessment that support for "the troops" is a mile wide but an inch deep, politically, it might be difficult to sell the public/voters on growing such benefits at the cost of other programming that people don't want to see cut.  The political question becomes "will enough voters be pissed enough to see vets shortchanged to make that a significant factor in choosing who to vote for?"  Sadly, I don't think so.  So will government do the popular thing (or, less kindly, the thing they can get away with), or do the "right" thing regardless of true public sentiment?

All that said, the "right" thing to do is to at least treat the current cohort of wounded warriors at least as well as previous cohorts. 
 
Eye In The Sky said:
Sorry but...too generous?  For wounded vets, etc I don't believe a country can be 'too/overly generous'.

No??......you know it's not just military folks who get hurt doing thier jobs.  And most for a lot less money.......
 
ERC:
Ms Guarnieri's successor, Conservative Minister Greg Thompson could have, and in my opinion should have, canned the Charter on one simple basis: one does not change horses in mid-stream.

Greg Thompson, IMHO and from some info, was a quite man who was kept on the road and out of the way by the bureaucrats.

Ineffectual.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
No??......you know it's not just military folks who get hurt doing thier jobs.  And most for a lot less money.......

I'm not sure what the point is.  Talking about vets who are injured while serving Canada and how Johnny slipped on ice while working his shift at Canadian Tire is applies/oranges.
 
Eye In The Sky said:
I'm not sure what the point is.  Talking about vets who are injured while serving Canada and how Johnny slipped on ice while working his shift at Canadian Tire is applies/oranges.

It's a spectrum...what about EMS workers, police, other government workers serving society?  So only military members?  That, unless I'm missing something, is what Mr. Monkhouse is getting at.
 
Part of it and part of it is about "Johnny at Canadian Tire"....................Johnny might just be as f#@&ed up and unable to support his family as the vet.
...and to be blunt, the Vet signed on the dotted line knowing the score.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more support but enough of the self-placement on the pedestal. It's a well paid job...full stop.
 
Good2Golf said:
It's a spectrum...what about EMS workers, police, other government workers serving society?  So only military members?  That, unless I'm missing something, is what Mr. Monkhouse is getting at.

I understand what he's getting at, I just don't see the direct relevance to this thread and the CDS comments/people's thoughts on how well DVA-VAC is doing.

EMS workers, police (aside from RCMP) should all be looked after for injuries sustained during the duties, of course.  But that has little to do with VAC issues (IMO).
 
My comments had nothing to do with what the CDS said. It was in reference to what you said....

Eye In The Sky said:
Sorry but...too generous?  For wounded vets, etc I don't believe a country can be 'too/overly generous'.


 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Part of it and part of it is about "Johnny at Canadian Tire"....................Johnny might just be as f#@&ed up and unable to support his family as the vet.
...and to be blunt, the Vet signed on the dotted line knowing the score.

Yes they did.  Part of that 'score' was understanding that *if* they were injured, VAC would be there.  Same as Johnny when he goes to work knowing his employeer, WCB, etc will be there if he slips on the ice during his shift.  Again...apples/oranges. 


Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more support but enough of the self-placement on the pedestal. It's a well paid job...full stop.

What self-placement on the pedestal and by who?  ???
 
So, being one of those "loud-mouthed Union reps" referred to earlier in this thread, if I said there should be "no limit" to what "Johnny with the broken ankle" should get you'd just sign off and say okie dokie?
 
I'd likely say nothing, as (1) it doesn't really matter or concern me directly with how Walmart compensates workers who slip on ice during their shift and (2) I don't see how it pertains to this specific topic (VAC, benefits to injured/wounded CF mbr's and Vets).

 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Naw,..you wouldn't.....enjoy the pedestal.

:facepalm:

You're right.  What was I doing, thinking I actually knew what I thought or gave a shit about.

As it seems the only thing you're interested in is  :slapfight: I'll step aside on this Johnny/Walmart 'distraction' stuff, m'kay?
 
Since we're talking about ankles and feets I remember hearing that in the CF someone loosing a foot gets the same payout, for example,  as someone loosing both legs and an arm. (in comparison a civi-side a whiplash case will netted 2 mil).  Probably apples and oranges but generous still doesn't come to mind when I hear VA.
 
The RCMP get the their benefits through VAC just like soldiers so your point is moot Mr. Monkhouse.
 
Nemo888 said:
The RCMP get the their benefits through VAC just like soldiers so your point is moot Mr. Monkhouse.

..and I said "pardon"?
I didn't mention, nor do I care, who the RCMP have to go through......
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Part of it and part of it is about "Johnny at Canadian Tire"....................Johnny might just be as f#@&ed up and unable to support his family as the vet.
...and to be blunt, the Vet signed on the dotted line knowing the score.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for more support but enough of the self-placement on the pedestal. It's a well paid job...full stop.

Unless things have changed, Canadian Tire is subject to a slew of provincial laws and codes that govern employer and employees when it comes to safety in the workplace.  Not the least of which is the Canada Labour Code.  Something which does NOT apply to members of the CAF.  So, regardless of whether Sammy soldier signs on a dotted line, and he/she is informed that their employer does not have to follow the same standard of care as the vast vast majority of Canadian employers -  it does not remove DND from the moral obligation to stop carrying for injured servicemen/women, when the paychecks stop.  That is the precedent which the GoC set following WWi/WWII, and it's reasonable to assume that soldiers signing up in the past few decades expected the same standard of care if they were injured. 

I don't fully disagree with your comment about pedestals, but when you get past all the rhetoric, that's not what this is about.  That could be another thread all together.
 
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