Are Submarines a required capability in a modern Navy??

[aesop081]

  Assuming that I am not mistaken,

You are correct.

  If we continue to allow our ASW abilities to erode

There's not much left to erode unfortunately.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Hopefuly, the Mk48 7AT goes ahead.

Mod 7 is the CBASS. Mod 6 is the AT, and Mod 5 is ADCAP.

Whichever version it is will end up being pretty expensive. None of the upgrades re-use much from mod 4's, so they're almost as expensive as a new build. Equipping the Victorias on the same scale as the Oberons would lead to a ~400 million dollar project.

 

[aesop081]

Mod 7 is the CBASS. Mod 6 is the AT, and Mod 5 is ADCAP.

Ok. We were told 7AT by the staff at CFMWC 2 weeks ago. IIRC it was re-using the back half of the mod 4 and a new front end.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

That's basically the upgrade, but the expensive bits are in the front.

 

[aesop081]

but the expensive bits are in the front.

I had that much figured out.

 

[whitehorse]

"To plan only for what is in front of us right now is a classic Canadian mistake."

What alterrnative is there in the face of ever dwindling budgets and a real war on terror but to focus operational and capital budgets on a real world assessment of real threats.

Our Navy is small and getting smaller. Our vessels are old and getting older. Replacements have been discussed but so far no money has been allocated, no contracts signed. Collectively our economy is getting worse and worse ever increasing the above cycle.

Maintaining a cold war relic, no matter how effective against other cold war relics is not an option. We can either focus or die. In this case the best plan we can make is that no matter what happens in the future; frigates, destroyers and AORs offer the most flexible (and dare I say politically acceptable)response.

Further, public opinion is largely dead set against more submarines or for that matter spending more money on the ones we have. The public believes (rightly or wrongly) that the Upholders are a boondoggle. Are we prepared to go down the same path as we did 20 years ago where we sacrifieced the 'third batch' of FFHs for a promise of SSNs only to get neither? And remember the government that did this was actually seen as pragmatic for doing so.

Of what avail having the Mod 7 CBASS, the Mod 6 AT, or Mod 5 ADCAP if we are politically unwilling to use them? Firing a torpedo at a blip on a screen is a non-starter for a country unwilling to fire a visually aimed gun at a identified somali pirate.

 

[Galahad]

Our submarines are currently not even capable of firing the torpedoes we have. British subs, and British fire control systems won't work with American torpedoes.

 

[aesop081]

Our submarines are currently not even capable of firing the torpedoes we have. British subs, and British fire control systems won't work with American torpedoes.

You know, when i dont know what i'm talking about, i STFU.

 

[dapaterson]

Our submarines are currently not even capable of firing the torpedoes we have. British subs, and British fire control systems won't work with American torpedoes.

Yeah, who'd ever follow a STANAG?  Or work with COLOG in mind?

Or wander well outside their lanes...

 

[Navalgazer]

Adm Robertson confirmed today, that the boats have never fired a torpedo and that he is expecting in the summer or fall of 2010 to have torpedo certification for all 3 active boats.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

I'm pretty sure Victoria went on weapons certs before she went into the "Refit without end". In any case, she'd have to recert once she comes out of refit.

 

[Galahad]

You know, when i dont know what i'm talking about, i STFU.

So do I, but I actually do know this, hence why I said it. I was on a tour of HMCS Chicoutimi about 4 months ago, and the sailor who was giving us the tour of the ship told us that.

Adm Robertson confirmed today, that the boats have never fired a torpedo and that he is expecting in the summer or fall of 2010 to have torpedo certification for all 3 active boats.

 

[Sub_Guy]

So do I, but I actually do know this, hence why I said it. I was on a tour of HMCS Chicoutimi about 4 months ago, and the sailor who was giving us the tour of the ship told us that.

I overheard a sailor (Officer) during tours down in Portland tell some folks that we had several ships in the Gulf.  The Americans who were touring the ship were surprised to find out that Canada had "Warships" and were impressed by its size (HMCS Vancouver 1999).  At the time we did not have one ship in the Gulf, although one was on its way, but to mention that we had several there, was misleading.

There were also those sailors who would tell folks that the VDS on the Iroquois was some sort of escape submarine for the CO.

 

[Lard of the Dance]

  All that being said, if we do have an active Navy then yes, we should have subs to have an all encompassing Naval force. Unfortunatley, those who decided on the last purchase did so with the attitude of a 17 year old buying his first car. HOTWHEELS!

 

[aesop081]

So do I, but I actually do know this, hence why I said it. I was on a tour of HMCS Chicoutimi about 4 months ago, and the sailor who was giving us the tour of the ship told us that.

And i was recently on course at the CF Maritime Warfafre Center and breifed on this by the 4-ringer head of the Underwater warfare department. You sure you want to compare ?

:

 

[Galahad]

No, I do not question your wisdom. I was simply saying that I didn't just make that up, that's all.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

There were also those sailors who would tell folks that the VDS on the Iroquois was some sort of escape submarine for the CO.

And the mortar well held a retractable 5"/54. And we only had a Sea Thing when the Apache was unavailable.

Galahad is right though....just not completely right. The original equipment on the Victorias couldn't work with the torpedoes we have. That equipment was replaced during "Canadianisation".

 

[Galahad]

Fair enough, he could have just been talking specifically about HMCS Chicoutimi. When we were there, there wasn't any equipment in it, Canadian or British, just a couple crates in the center of the control room.

 

[aesop081]

That equipment was replaced during "Canadianisation".

Replaced with the FCS from the OBERON class. That system, as i am told, was more modern than what was in the UPHOLDER class when we got them.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

You were told wrong...the British system was slightly better. The problem was that the British systems weren't compatible with the existing store of torpedoes, so they were ripped out and SFCS was kludged into place.

SFCS was the losing bidder for a USN SSBN torpedo FCS in the mid-70's. The British systems were state-of-the-art in the mid-80's.