APS 2012 - Housing market in military driven communities
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I'm actually getting posted this year to Pet. A few others I know are as well. The issue for such a late HHT is that houses in other military towns aren't selling either. I got my message late April and put the house up a week or so later and it is still on the market. I know a couple guys selling and have only just sold in the last week or so.
The vast majority of houses sold are all military where bases are(Maybe not Edmonton or Ottawa...) but when no one buys their house, they can't get to their new posting to buy another members house.
Brookfield should have a place setup that gives advantage of members buying from other members.
The vast majority of houses sold are all military where bases are(Maybe not Edmonton or Ottawa...) but when no one buys their house, they can't get to their new posting to buy another members house.
Brookfield should have a place setup that gives advantage of members buying from other members.
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ixium said:
???
Selling your current home has no affect on a HHT. You do NOT have to sell your house in order to go on a HHT. Nor do you HAVE TO BUY from another member.
You have your house on the market, and anyone could buy it, not just another military member.
You can go on your HHT and buy a home anywhere within the unit boundaries that you find meets your needs and desired access to your place of employment. You do not have to buy from another military member. There are many new homes constructed in the Petawawa and Pembroke areas. There are homes West of Petawawa along Hwy 17 in Chalk River and Deep River area. There are homes for sale in areas South of Petawawa in places like Eganville. To the East, you will find homes for sale in Cobden, Renfrew, Arnprior, Westmeath, and dozens of other locations. Perhaps you want to live in the Pontiac, across the river in Quebec.
McG
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Brookfield will tell members the exact opposite.George Wallace said:
It is true that you can go on an HHT before selling, but if the property you attempt to buy falls through while waiting for your current home to sell then you don't get the costs of a second HHT.
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ixium said:
If you're a service couple or have no intent on going IR from your current home you could do the HHT and apply for a PMQ in Petawawa. If you do a conditional offer and sell your house before you move than great, if not, than you move into the PMQ (dependant on availability of PMQs there of course) and try to rent your current home out. I know of 2 couples in Shilo that have done that (both from Gagetown). The markets in most military communities seem to be bad (Gagetown, for sure, is horribly flooded as Oromocto, population 8000ish, has over 200 houses on the market alone).
As for the timings of HHT, this has been a topic of discussion here also. As Maple Resolve is running in the April/May timeframe than it should be expected that a large number of postings will always be later than they were in the past. Pers in the High readiness units shouldnt be posted directly after MR (though this happens) so it should largely effect the supporting cast of the ex.... Unfortunately this doesn't seem like it's going to change, as the idea is that the high readiness units receive their newly posted in pers in the summer, do Lvl 1-4/5 training in the autumn, than confirm with Ex MR.
Well I know that you can go on an HHT (which Brookfield frowns on). You either have to have enough cash to put a deposit on a new house or put a condition on your purchase agreement that says pending sale of previous house. Some people don't like dealing with that, some people don't mind, but I'm sure all of them would rather not have to.
I'm also not even looking in Pet, except maybe one place. Prices are kinda crazy for me. I'd rather be away from towns and in the country. Seriously looking at getting a place in Quebec if the hoops I have to jump through aren't too much.
I'm also not even looking in Pet, except maybe one place. Prices are kinda crazy for me. I'd rather be away from towns and in the country. Seriously looking at getting a place in Quebec if the hoops I have to jump through aren't too much.
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Keep in mind you're going to have to sell. Living far out of the largest employer in the area severely reduces your market reach.
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You need to be very careful about going the rental route. It is not something to do without researching it thoroughly beforehand. First, if you rent out your house, you lose your entitlements from Brookfield for the sale (RE commission, lawyers fees, TDRA, etc.). You need to make sure you've opted for the RE incentive for not selling (up to 12K depending on appraisal of the home). Sure, you can roll the dice and not tell Brookfield you are renting it out, but you are then technically committing fraud.Bird_Gunner45 said:
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ixium said:
Only thing I would worry about are taxes. Other than that there I know some guys that are living on the Quebec side of the river. Other places to have a look are Deep River, Chaulk River, Eganville, Cobden, and anywhere in between. All really nice places that aren't a terrible commute.
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Would be very interested to get some data on the number of people posted across the country, with the typical mid-July COS date, who have not taken their HHT yet. If it is significant, there are a couple of reasons that have already been mentioned:
1. Ex MAPLE RESOLVE - now that it's pretty much a full-court Army press with one brigade as PTA, another as OPFOR, and the third providing all the OCTs and mentors, it already pushes a lot of HHTs to the right
2. The Brookfield scare tactic, and sometimes outright lie, that you should not (or cannot) take your HHT until you sell your house. Since most buyers and sellers in military towns are other military, if nobody goes on an HHT until they sell their house then of course houses won't sell. It's a perfect catch-22.
The other potential reason is the stricter enforcement of the door-to-door move that kicked in a few years ago. People are hesistant (and I know some) to commit to a closing date on a new home until they know the closing date on their current home, as they might have to pay for interim meals, accommodation and storage if the dates don't line up. It would come out of their posting allowance, not their pocket, but to some the posting allowance is sacred.
1. Ex MAPLE RESOLVE - now that it's pretty much a full-court Army press with one brigade as PTA, another as OPFOR, and the third providing all the OCTs and mentors, it already pushes a lot of HHTs to the right
2. The Brookfield scare tactic, and sometimes outright lie, that you should not (or cannot) take your HHT until you sell your house. Since most buyers and sellers in military towns are other military, if nobody goes on an HHT until they sell their house then of course houses won't sell. It's a perfect catch-22.
The other potential reason is the stricter enforcement of the door-to-door move that kicked in a few years ago. People are hesistant (and I know some) to commit to a closing date on a new home until they know the closing date on their current home, as they might have to pay for interim meals, accommodation and storage if the dates don't line up. It would come out of their posting allowance, not their pocket, but to some the posting allowance is sacred.
McG
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Part of the problem is the aggregate effect of individual member decisions coming back to hurt ourselves at the collective level. Every member screws another member when building a home in a small military comunity where housing supply already exceedes demand.
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Homes are personal decisions, and I don't think it's anyone's responsibility to buy a home sold by a military member. I'm buying a new build home, as my realtor advised they're easier to sell in 5-7 years when I'm posted out. Why should I use my hard earned money to buy a house I don't want to deliberately keep a market down?
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MCG said:
That's quite a shot at those who wish the joy of owning a brand new house,,,,,,
McG
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And this is why the situation will never improve in Petawawa or Oromocto without DND causing something to change. Everyone will make the decision that benefits themself (seeking the most gain or the least risk).PuckChaser said:
If you are building into a small military community, then you are contributing to the problem of ever-growing supply for an unchanging level of demand. I do hope karma does not come bite you in 5 to 7 years, and I do realize your decision alone is not enough to influence that market dynamic.
Building more houses in saturated communities is what will drive the market down. Constraining the supply by limiting construction is what will allow the market to grow.
Maybe, but it is not untrue and it is not something that should be expected to change without external influence. It is Nash's equilibrium. Choose the path to potential greatest gain for all and you are simultaneously at risk of the most dangerous fall. Choose the path of greatest potential personal gain and you simultaneously undercut everybody else while minimizing the potential worst case for yourself.Bruce Monkhouse said:
Every military member (in a small, military community) depends on the next military member to buy his house. But the next military member says "fuck you, I am looking out for me!" In this environment, it is actually self-damaging to be the individual who settles for what he needs as opposed to all he wants … but going for all the wants still screws the others in the community.
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MCG said:
I think blaming the military member for wanting to purchase the best home for their family, which has a higher chance of resale is misguided. Why should I be forced to live in a small town in an old-fixer upper home if I don't want to? We need to be looking at the town governments who are supposed to control building in the area, for wanting taxes and permit money that may be artificially inflated by the CAF's presence. Another real issue we've created is the extreme lack of suitable PMQs, and their relative high-cost compared to purchasing, which drives people to the housing market. This, coupled with making large bases in small communities, rams a huge influx of homebuyers into an area that typically would never see that kind of turnover.
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Petawawa has long been ruled by the Car Dealers and Realtors. When the Government cut back on Postings in the late '80's the Realtors all cried foul, and continued to do so through to today. It was a 'sellers market' in Petawawa around 2006, when DND announced the stand up of CSOR, and soon after the purchase of Chinooks and all it involved in increasing the size of the Heliport in Pet. Local businessmen took advantage of those announcements to go into a 'building frenzy', building over 700 new homes in the next couple of years. Now it should be a buyer's market.
It is unfair for MCG to blame a service member for not buying from another service member. Although a nice sentiment, it is totally illogical. Not everyone wants to buy a 'fixer upper' or in a community of a certain demographic. Some want to buy new. Some want to buy in the country away from work and neighbours. Some want to buy within walking distance of work. Insinuating that a service member should throw their desires of what they want to purchase in a home out the window to appease some other service member who is trying to sell their home, is nonsense.
The other thing; is the asking price for their homes could be their main problem. The example I remember vividly, on posting to Petawawa, was being shown a home a few blocks from the village Post Office. The Realtor said they would show the home, but did not recommend it. It was owned by a female MWO who was posted out, and her house was on the market for over a year. The home was damp and smelled of mold. The above ground pool she had in the backyard was full of water blacker than strong coffee, with half the pool cover submerged in the sludge. She would not drop her price in any negotiations and the property was slowly going to ruin. If you are trying to make a windfall on you home sale in a buyer's market, you are fantasying. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and take the best offer.
It is unfair for MCG to blame a service member for not buying from another service member. Although a nice sentiment, it is totally illogical. Not everyone wants to buy a 'fixer upper' or in a community of a certain demographic. Some want to buy new. Some want to buy in the country away from work and neighbours. Some want to buy within walking distance of work. Insinuating that a service member should throw their desires of what they want to purchase in a home out the window to appease some other service member who is trying to sell their home, is nonsense.
The other thing; is the asking price for their homes could be their main problem. The example I remember vividly, on posting to Petawawa, was being shown a home a few blocks from the village Post Office. The Realtor said they would show the home, but did not recommend it. It was owned by a female MWO who was posted out, and her house was on the market for over a year. The home was damp and smelled of mold. The above ground pool she had in the backyard was full of water blacker than strong coffee, with half the pool cover submerged in the sludge. She would not drop her price in any negotiations and the property was slowly going to ruin. If you are trying to make a windfall on you home sale in a buyer's market, you are fantasying. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and take the best offer.
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There might be a few hold-outs that are refusing to lower their price, but by and large people are dropping their prices and often selling at a loss. First house I sold in Petawawa in 2009, I sold for $26,500 more than what I paid - after 2 years. Granted, I got a steal when I bought it (panicked sellers). The house I just sold, I lost $3,500 after 4 years (but probably paid about $4K too much in the first place).
When posting messages first came out, people were listing their houses for $10,000 less than what they probably should have been, because they wanted to sell quickly and avoid what happened to so many last year (i.e. not selling). So right off the bat, everyone else has to lower theirs to compete, and so the downward spiral began. Realtors are not happy, because they're trying to keep the prices up in the ridiculously over-inflated, over-supplied housing market they helped create. Mine tried to get me to hold out for more during negotiations, but I told her there was no point risking losing the sale since Brookfield would cover that amount of a loss. She was not happy. Several friends have told me the same story.
So it's not that people are holding out - in fact it's mostly the opposite. There are just more houses than there are buyers, and yet the rampant construction continues. It's mind-boggling.
When posting messages first came out, people were listing their houses for $10,000 less than what they probably should have been, because they wanted to sell quickly and avoid what happened to so many last year (i.e. not selling). So right off the bat, everyone else has to lower theirs to compete, and so the downward spiral began. Realtors are not happy, because they're trying to keep the prices up in the ridiculously over-inflated, over-supplied housing market they helped create. Mine tried to get me to hold out for more during negotiations, but I told her there was no point risking losing the sale since Brookfield would cover that amount of a loss. She was not happy. Several friends have told me the same story.
So it's not that people are holding out - in fact it's mostly the opposite. There are just more houses than there are buyers, and yet the rampant construction continues. It's mind-boggling.
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ProPatria05 said:
Tell me about it. Was posted back to Pet from Kingston, after being in Gagetown for six years, and was amazed at the "Toronto prices" that were demanded for homes. Ridiculous. There are some good Realtors in the Pet area, and some very unscrupulous ones as well.
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