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Another Boost for you Tankers out there

Kirkhill

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July 2004

Heavy Armor Gains Clout in Urban Combat  

by Roxana Tiron  


An ongoing debate within the U.S. Army is whether to revise its tactics and doctrine for the employment of heavy armored vehicles in urban areas.

Operations in Iraq prove that the current doctrine, which specifically dissuades the Army from bringing tanks into cities, should be rewritten, said Gen. B.B. Bell, the commander of the Army's forces in Europe.

â Å“The utility of tanks in the city, not only from a protective envelope, but also from a capabilities perspective, is something that we relearned,â ? Bell told National Defense. â Å“I think we knew this in previous wars. So, we have to go re-look at our doctrine and make sure that we write our doctrine correctly for using armored platforms in cities.â ?

In the current doctrine, crafted 20 years ago, â Å“the fundamental precept was [that] the worst place where you can take a tank is in the city,â ? Bell said in an interview during the 2004 Armor conference at Fort Knox, Ky.

â Å“The general belief was that you'd be immediately engulfed with rocket-propelled grenades, [the tank] would be caught up in this terrible caldron of fires and, therefore, this was not an appropriate platform to operate in cities,â ? he explained. â Å“That has obviously proven to be a doctrine of exclusion that was not correct.â ?

Stability and support operations have turned out more lethal than expected, he said, and therefore, the requirement for armored platforms, ranging from tanks to Stryker light armored vehicles and up-armored Humvees, â Å“is as important as it has ever been and, perhaps, more so,â ? he said.

Lt. Gen. Thomas Metz, the commander of the U.S. Army's 3rd Corps and the multi-national Corps in Iraq has required more tanks and Bradleys, according to Chief Master Sgt. William Gainey. â Å“We are all beefing up,â ? he said after a presentation at Fort Knox. â Å“We had what we thought we needed, but it did not prove enough.â ?

Officials at Fort Hood, Texas, were preparing last month to send 50 tanks to Iraq.

â Å“One thing is for sure: to gain proximity to the enemy and survive his ambush attacks, having sufficient armor surrounding our forcesâ ”physically surrounding themâ ”has proven vital,â ? Bell said.

â Å“Armored platforms do have a role in cities,â ? he argued. â Å“They have a role first to protect our infantry formations as they fight house to house. Then, they have a role as a support platform, or firing platform to defeat enemy forces in cities.â ?

U.S. main battle tanksâ ”the M1A1 Abrams and its updated versions, the M1A2 and the M1A2 System Enhancement Programâ ”carry precise, direct-fire weapons that can cut the risk of civilian casualties, which normally would be high in a city, said Bell.

â Å“An artillery piece, or even certain types of aerial delivered fire, produce a wide range of collateral damage that a direct-fire, tank-like weapon does not produce,â ? he said.

â Å“I would take this tank in the urban environment any day, because having extra protection would be something that we like,â ? Staff Sgt. Jared Hamilton said. Hamilton fought with the 3rd Infantry Division in Iraq.

â Å“Tanks not only provide over-watch, they can also blow up a house much better than the firepower from six soldiers,â ? he told National Defense. â Å“In order to disable a tank, one would have to get pretty close to it.â ?

But that does not happen often, he said. The shock factor of an Abrams tank is fairly effective. Insurgents are less likely to attack if a tank is present, he explained.

Hamilton's former unit from the 3rd ID, training at Fort Polk, La., before being re-deployed, is using the tanks in support of the dismounts, he said.

In the past, infantry always entered cities first, with armor following, explained Gainey. Now, â Å“what we are trying to do is put the armor in first, blow the holes and [then] let the infantry come in,â ? he said. â Å“That is working well.â ?

Success in the urban environment requires the effective use of the combined arms teamsâ ”the mix of scouts, infantry and armored platforms, according to Bell. â Å“What you do not want to do is use any of these capabilities by themselves.â ?

The Army's intent to build combined arms brigades-modular units organized as combined arms at the lowest levelâ ”will not only bring all those organizations together for the fight, but keep them together for their entire organizational life, said Bell.

The 3rd ID, based at Fort Stewart, Ga., is the first to be reorganized under the modularity concept and will test it when they re-deploy to Iraq. The division's three brigades are being restructured into four â Å“units of action,â ? including armored, maneuver and aviation components. The division headquarters will become the â Å“unit of employment X.â ?

The maneuver units of action are made up of an armed reconnaissance squadron, two combined arms battalions, an artillery battalion, a brigade support battalion and an engineer company, according to Maj. Gen. Terry Tucker, the commander of Fort Knox and the Army's Armor School.

â Å“We had a tradition in the Army for years of tailoring and task-organizing for a mission right before the mission and it worked kind of well, but we have always been troubled that during training and exercises we did not have these organizations permanently formed,â ? Bell said.

To provide the combatant commanders with cohesive, combat-ready troops, the Army has to figure out how to bring a unit together â Å“at the right timeâ ? and keep it together, Tucker explained.

Under a new proposed plan, a brigade should be â Å“rebuiltâ ? over one to three months, then would spend up to eight months training, culminating with a certification exercise. For about 24 to 29 months, the brigade will stay ready to conduct operations and each of these new units of action can expect to go â Å“somewhere, at least once,â ? said Tucker.

â Å“That gives you about a three-year cycle to build the team, train it, deploy it and bring it back,â ? Tucker said in a presentation at the armor conference. To support this plan, however, the Army has to restructure the personnel system.

Meanwhile, Fort Knox is leading the Army's efforts to change the way the service trains its armor and infantry forces, said Tucker, from â Å“private to brigade commander.â ?

The Army is revamping unit training, according to Tucker. Soldiers and officers are spending more time in live exercises and less on marches and drills.

â Å“Tankers and scouts are not going to be good marchers for the next year or two, because they are conducting tactical movements and combat drills,â ? Tucker said. Additionally, troops will learn to fire their individual and collective unit weapons at night and during the day, according to Tucker.

Classroom instruction will be curtailed, said Tucker. â Å“Today, what we turn out is a soldier [who] is better prepared to arrive at this first unit to contribute to the effortâ ? as opposed to having to be trained by the platoon sergeant in theater, he said.

Non-commissioned officers also will be better trained to lead crews, squads, sections and platoons. â Å“We are getting great sergeants out in the operational force, a lot faster than we did [before],â ? said Tucker. Out of 368 soldiers who recently graduated from the Armor School, 240 were in theater

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/article.cfm?Id=1485

You might also be interested in this one

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/article.cfm?Id=1488

Basically it says that Israeli troops are dying in M113s and despite the fact that Merkavas are hard to handle in cities they need to use them as APCs.

Back to the discussion about MBTs with short barrelled guns/mortars or as APCs?

Cheers
 
Sorry about the thread title.  Keyboard has a  sticky button :-[
 
Well, somebody finally started thinking up there. They thought "superior intelligence and maneuver" would protect lightly armoured vehicles from RPG-7's and SPG-9's...bull. Only 1 m of composite armour with depleted uranium inserts can provide adequate protection in urban areas, so bring on the M1A3 Abrams (FCS...pfff).
 
I got rid of the "bbbbbbbb" at the end of your title, silly computers.


Regards.
 
Smoothbore said:
Only 1 m of composite armour with depleted uranium inserts can provide adequate protection in urban areas

1 metre?? Or do you mean one millimetre?
 
atticus said:
Smoothbore said:
Only 1 m of composite armour with depleted uranium inserts can provide adequate protection in urban areas

1 metre?? Or do you mean one millimetre?
1mm is far to thin.  I don't know that anything exists with 1 m skin.

100 mm maybe?
 
The M1A2 supposedly has frontal armour protection equivelent to 1200mm of RHA.  The M1A2 SEP has more. 

Challenger 2, Leo 2A5/6, and the SV122 both have well over 1M RHA equivelent armour as well.

Although the true armour protection of these tanks is a closely guarded secret, some data has slipped out.  There is still arguments raging about which tank has the most armour protection.  It is known that the Challenger 2, for example, was the most protected tank in the world before the advent of the M1A2SEP and the SV122 came along.  Some say it still is.
 
Yep, 1 m, that is 1000 mm, and that's the estimated protection against kinetic energy projectiles for the frontal arc of the M1A2 SEP. In comparison the Leopard 2A4 has 850 mm of composite frontal armour.
 
Ah, frontal armour.  However, in an urban environment your armour protection is only as good as the weakest spot in 360 degrees of 3 dimensional protection.
 
How much belly armour do you need to protect against a 155mm HE round detonating underneath the driver's feet?
 
Smoothbore said:
Yep, 1 m, that is 1000 mm, and that's the estimated protection against kinetic energy projectiles for the frontal arc of the M1A2 SEP. In comparison the Leopard 2A4 has 850 mm of composite frontal armour.
[/quote

Your data is close, most agree on the following armour (in mm) for Ke wpns...



Leopard 2A4 â “ Glacis 60cm KE, Hull Side 6-7cm KE, Turret Front KE 70cm , Turret Side 27cm KE

Leopard 2A5 â “ Glacis 62cm KE , Hull Side 17cm KE, Turret Front c100cm KE , Turret Side 29cm KE 4


Leopard 2A6 Turret: 920-940 (est) P 1100cm KE
Glacis: 620

M1A1(HC) & M1A2 - Glacis 56-59cm KE , Hull Side 9cm KE , Turret Front 88cm KE, Turret Side 30cm KE


Although no M1 (except for 1 damaged through a penetration) has been destroyed from rpg's that we know of, tanks are still your best protection....
 
Kirkhill said:
How much belly armour do you need to protect against a 155mm HE round detonating underneath the driver's feet?
or an Anti-tank mine, or IED.
 
Floor design has more to do with it , than armour thickness allthough you can never have enough armour.

The Merk3/4 has advance hull bottom defence to deal with such devices.
Generally any flat bottom AFV is not what you want, but rather a bottom that will direct the blast outwards and not upwards.

If the eneny really wants to destroy a MBT they can, as we have seen with the recent Merk lost, a 50-80 kg blast that went through the botton and blew the engine up through the front, then hitting the tube in which took off the turret. But these devices take a lot of explosives and there end result is for political victory and not a tatical one. Still the MBT is the safest place to be in any roadside bomb, you just can't beat the protection they provide, other than a D-9 tearing up the road in front, followed by dogs, eng'rs etc......
 
Hand-Over of the First Mine-Protected MBT Leopard 2 
 
 
(Source: Krauss-Maffei Wegmann; issued July 7, 2004)
 
 
MUNICH, Germany --- On July 7, 2004, the first Leopard 2 mine-protected MBT will be handed over to the German and Swedish users at a hand-over ceremony at Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) in Munich. 

In September 2003, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann was awarded a contract for mine protection of the Leopard 2 MBT for the German and Swedish Armed Forces. In the case of the German Leopard 2 MBT, the contract covers the complete modification of the vehicle. For Sweden, Krauss-Maffei Wegmann supplies the complete modification kits for the vehicles. 

In what may be called a model of co-operation, the international working group (Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands, Sweden and Norway) under the lead responsibility of BWB jointly defined the mine protection concept for the Leopard 2 MBT. This concept was developed with Krauss-Maffei Wegmann as prime contractor and leading systems engineering company in the army technology sector. 

The high level of mine protection is achieved through an innovative overall system concept consisting of add-on armour elements, innovative seat systems and re-stowage arrangements. 

The Leopard 2 MBT is the world's first battle tank to feature this high level of protection against current anti-tank mines.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.3629701.1081871598.QHwM7sOa9dUAAGWDMHQ&modele=jdc_34
 
Ah..... Data shows that the IDF has had this form of advance belly protection for some time now. I would think that that item is not quite right with its facts reguarding " the first to have this protection ".

It actually started on the Merk 2 (mod?) and has bennbeen developed from there to what they have now on the Merk 4.
 
Two questions Sapper,

1.  Who gets his pay stopped, the commander or the driver?

And 2. How long DOES it take to pay off a perfectly good MBT on a Corporal's pay.  Although I admit there is a lot of historical evidence to suggest that the culprit is more likely to be a 2Lt with a map and compass. ;D

Cheers.
 
Kirkhill said:
  Although I admit there is a lot of historical evidence to suggest that the culprit is more likely to be a 2Lt with a map and compass. ;D

Actually the culprit was a "night driving exercise".

(As told by a guy who was there and posted the story on another Forum.(not me though ;D))



GW
 
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