Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[Eye In The Sky]

Keep in mind that compensation includes elements that don't directly flow into an individual's pockets, things like employer contributions to pensions, medical benefits etc etc.

That’s a fair point that often gets lost in the scuffle. I just did a SCAN seminar and got an idea of what my medical and dental will cost on release.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Civy aviation world pay is a joke, not disputing that, but again the difference in pay is the risk and responsibility. You can’t just pull over to the side of the cloud. If the CAF wants to pay veh techs spec, great! Make the entry requirements the same as spec trades and away you go.


A Cpl changing the engine on an aircraft is worth more than 8% pay difference than a Cpl handing out ruck sacks. If that’s the value the CAF puts on its people then the retention numbers will eventually speak for themselves.

Why are you mad at MMTs because the CAF didn't raise your spec pay ?

You seem very bitter, why are you still in the CAF ? It's supposedly a job rich environment out there.

 

[CountDC]

lol the good old my trade is much more important than yours. Still going as strong as ever. See we added the element of the job responsibility to the mix.

Playing that game I guess I should have been paid a lot more in my last posting to Ottawa. Every aircraft the CAF had flying outside Canada was refueled because of me. I was the AVPOL AO for Canada, tracked every aircraft wing and base, assigned the nice fuel card to the aircrafts so they could fill up, paid the bills, resolved conflicts, etc. I also dealt with the USA if there was a country location that needed pre-payment (which thankfully didn't happen on my watch).

I always found that game so fun. Importance wise who doesn't get that the infantry is the most important as they are the one that closes with the enemy, captures, occupies and holds the territory, Worse case scenario they can confiscate supplies from the captured areas if needed. The rest of us are only making their jobs easier. Now if they would only learn to shoot farther than 50 metres

 

[Halifax Tar]

lol the good old my trade is much more important than yours. Still going as strong as ever. See we added the element of the job responsibility to the mix.

Playing that game I guess I should have been paid a lot more in my last posting to Ottawa. Every aircraft the CAF had flying outside Canada was refueled because of me. I was the AVPOL AO for Canada, tracked every aircraft wing and base, assigned the nice fuel card to the aircrafts so they could fill up, paid the bills, resolved conflicts, etc. I also dealt with the USA if there was a country location that needed pre-payment (which thankfully didn't happen on my watch).

I always found that game so fun. Importance wise who doesn't get that the infantry is the most important as they are the one that closes with the enemy, captures, occupies and holds the territory, Worse case scenario they can confiscate supplies from the captured areas if needed. The rest of us are only making their jobs easier. Now if they would only learn to shoot farther than 50 metres

Well said.

 

[mariomike]

lol the good old my trade is much more important than yours. Still going as strong as ever.

Lot of that went on at our beer union hall.

Obviously, no one knows CAF job classifications better than the members doing them.

Does the CAF include members in any sort of Job Evaluation Maintenance Program ( JEMP )?
That's what we called it. The CAF may call it something else.

Some JEMP went to negotiation, if there had been significant change since the last evaluation. Others to arbitration for analysis.

Or, are members left out of the job evaluation program?

Changes to the job
Job summary
Job duties
Job knowledge
Judgment
Results - accountability
Human relations contacts
Dexterity
Mental effort
Physical effort
Working conditions

Each of the above goes into considerable detail that only someone doing it could know. But, that was the basic idea.

All members of each job classification were invited to participate in the process - when their's came up for review.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Sounds like an Occupation Specification, sort of mixed with a Qualification Standard and a touch of Job Description from our evaluation program (PaCE).

 

[Eye In The Sky]

lol the good old my trade is much more important than yours. Still going as strong as ever. See we added the element of the job responsibility to the mix.

Playing that game I guess I should have been paid a lot more in my last posting to Ottawa. Every aircraft the CAF had flying outside Canada was refueled because of me. I was the AVPOL AO for Canada, tracked every aircraft wing and base, assigned the nice fuel card to the aircrafts so they could fill up, paid the bills, resolved conflicts, etc. I also dealt with the USA if there was a country location that needed pre-payment (which thankfully didn't happen on my watch).

I always found that game so fun. Importance wise who doesn't get that the infantry is the most important as they are the one that closes with the enemy, captures, occupies and holds the territory, Worse case scenario they can confiscate supplies from the captured areas if needed. The rest of us are only making their jobs easier. Now if they would only learn to shoot farther than 50 metres

And we appreciate that work. We don’t compensate for responsibility, which I think we should.

Job responsibilities are important. If I’m working at Wing Ops, my responsibilities aren’t the same as if I am putting an aircraft thru a huge storm system with 19 other people on board relying on my RADAR and MET skills being solid, going down track at 500+ km/h.

Responsibility isn’t always tied to trade or rank, and when people talk about risk I automatically include “…of someone dying”. If there is no risk of death, it’s low risk, really.

Risk of an error making salad isn’t the same level of risk as incorrectly torquing a fastener on a flight control surface actuator.

Importance? Everyone is important. Not all trades deal with the same responsibility or risk as a matter of day to day ops. But that isn’t a slight, it’s just a reality.

I fly for a living, and value the work of the entire wing to put aircraft in the air. I also believe the folks who have the highest level of risk and responsibility that aren’t on the plane to be the air maintenance folks that make take off possible, and the air traffic folks who get us back down.

It’s like a cop and 911 dispatcher. They both need each other but 1 has to assume more risk and responsibility. Both are important. Both make the team. The dispatcher is less likely to be shot at, or shot back.

I think of high responsibility, high risk, day to day expectations for a trade - SAR Tech.

 

[mariomike]

Sounds like an Occupation Specification, sort of mixed with a Qualification Standard and a touch of Job Description from our evaluation program (PaCE).

Thanks, I was trying to remember that.

PaCE : Performance Appraisal and Competency system

I know the Navy loves Div Notes (to the point they are beyond over-used) but weekly FN might be too much. I’ve done monthly FNs so far and keep a notes/etc on things I do outside of my expected tasks (my JD and TOAs). In bigger sub-unit, the boss will be overwhelmed with FNs if everyone is...

army.ca

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Thanks, I was trying to remember that.

PaCE : Performance Appraisal and Competency system

I know the Navy loves Div Notes (to the point they are beyond over-used) but weekly FN might be too much. I’ve done monthly FNs so far and keep a notes/etc on things I do outside of my expected tasks (my JD and TOAs). In bigger sub-unit, the boss will be overwhelmed with FNs if everyone is...

army.ca

Occ Specs are overall “trade duties,
expectations and conditions”. The QS tells what specific jobs must be able to be done once qualified and to what level. Then a Job Description can drill down more detail on ALL job’s requirements in a position. Example, Sqn Operations WO. Flying is a part of the overall JD.

 

[GR66]

Risk of an error making salad isn’t the same level of risk as incorrectly torquing a fastener on a flight control surface actuator.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I was the AVPOL AO for Canada, tracked every aircraft wing and base, assigned the nice fuel card to the aircrafts so they could fill up, paid the bills, resolved conflicts, etc

Oh brother…. We need to talk…..

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Hard to explain "responsibility" effectively, because all have responsibility in our trades, and it varies in our trades and positions.

I only have my trade Occ Spec right handy, but here's a passage that I'm hoping makes my point clearer:

Mental Effort. Subject to varying degrees of attention/concentration and analysis effort. When not flying or undergoing simulator training, the level of mental effort is normal. The level of mental effort becomes severe during intense tactical operations and during airborne or ground emergencies. AES OP airborne/simulator duties demand continuous attention and a high degree of mental alertness for prolonged periods. They must apply knowledge and procedures to changing environmental and tactical situations. Continuous analysis of the environment, mission aims and threats requires a flexible and adaptive work style. AES OPs must have the ability to operate sensors and perform duties with a minimum of supervision. In the performance of their duties, AES OPs must react immediately and correctly to various tactical and emergency situations which could threaten the survival of the aircraft and its crew.

That's an unusual level of responsibility for a Cpl/Avr; I'm doubtful a Cook Cpl/Pte or Postal Clerk Cpl/Pte shares that level of responsibility.

Everyone is important. Not all trades, and not everyone in the same trade, will have the same responsibility and risk.


* I'd of used the Flt Engineer (Spec 2), AVN Tech (Spec 1) and Cook (Standard) Occ Specs as comparison but...I'm not up to going into work tonight.

 

[dimsum]

That's an unusual level of responsibility for a Cpl/Avr; I'm doubtful a Cook Cpl/Pte or Postal Clerk Cpl/Pte shares that level of responsibility.

I guess the whole "immediate promotion to Sgt, like the RAF" argument falls away if their HD is effectively zero.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Hard to explain "responsibility" effectively, because all have responsibility in our trades, and it varies in our trades and positions.

I only have my trade Occ Spec right handy, but here's a passage that I'm hoping makes my point clearer:

Mental Effort. Subject to varying degrees of attention/concentration and analysis effort. When not flying or undergoing simulator training, the level of mental effort is normal. The level of mental effort becomes severe during intense tactical operations and during airborne or ground emergencies. AES OP airborne/simulator duties demand continuous attention and a high degree of mental alertness for prolonged periods. They must apply knowledge and procedures to changing environmental and tactical situations. Continuous analysis of the environment, mission aims and threats requires a flexible and adaptive work style. AES OPs must have the ability to operate sensors and perform duties with a minimum of supervision. In the performance of their duties, AES OPs must react immediately and correctly to various tactical and emergency situations which could threaten the survival of the aircraft and its crew.

That's an unusual level of responsibility for a Cpl/Avr; I'm doubtful a Cook Cpl/Pte or Postal Clerk Cpl/Pte shares that level of responsibility.

Everyone is important. Not all trades, and not everyone in the same trade, will have the same responsibility and risk.


* I'd of used the Flt Engineer (Spec 2), AVN Tech (Spec 1) and Cook (Standard) Occ Specs as comparison but...I'm not up to going into work tonight.

I mean you could use your argument to say you should only get spec pay when actually carrying out the duties for which it's awarded.

I know an MWO in your trade at CFLRS now... Why is he getting spec pay and the MWO Cook in the same CSM role at CFLRS isn't ?

Don't get me wrong, I get why you guys keep it. And I don't bemoan people who have it. But to be mad that CAF didn't up a Spec level so you take out on those making less than you speaks volumes of a person's character.

We are all cogs in the wheel. Some of us meet the enemy and some don't. But every roll is important and is needed. And contributes to the battle space.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I guess the whole "immediate promotion to Sgt, like the RAF" argument falls away if their HD is effectively zero.

Personally I see the value in the pensionable income aspect. HD is posting message dependent. Min rank Sgt aircrew is a conversation that is at low level but hopefully will be entertained in the future…

 

[dapaterson]

That's an unusual level of responsibility for a Cpl/Avr; I'm doubtful a Cook Cpl/Pte or Postal Clerk Cpl/Pte shares that level of responsibility.

Everyone is important. Not all trades, and not everyone in the same trade, will have the same responsibility and risk.

Cooks, day in and day out, perform tasks that if improperly done will render entire units ineffective (aka "everyone's stuck in the shitters").

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Civy aviation world pay is a joke, not disputing that, but again the difference in pay is the risk and responsibility. You can’t just pull over to the side of the cloud. If the CAF wants to pay veh techs spec, great! Make the entry requirements the same as spec trades and away you go.


A Cpl changing the engine on an aircraft is worth more than 8% pay difference than a Cpl handing out ruck sacks. If that’s the value the CAF puts on its people then the retention numbers will eventually speak for themselves.

So, let me recap. What you do is way more important than anyone else, although you have no direct experience of other trades. Check. You also state, at some great length, that CAF pers get way too much leave compared to civie street, although I can't see that you have any experience there. If you are in fact a supervisor do you deny your people leave while telling them they are more important than any other trade?


Feel free to not answer. I am getting used to that

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I mean you could use your argument to say you should only get spec pay when actually carrying out the duties for which it's awarded.

Right now, that all falls to environmental allowances. If we follow pilots and SAR Tech, that will go away and pay will fuse with allowance.

I know an MWO in your trade at CFLRS now... Why is he getting spec pay and the MWO Cook in the same CSM role at CFLRS isn't ?

I don’t have a good defence for that. This subj has been debated internally at a few WGs I was on that were talking about Spec 2, Spec 1 and if there was a need to consider different pay for ground vice flying positions. The consensus seemed to end up at “good luck getting people into ground posns if they lose Spec and AIRCRA and believe they’d have any GAFF left”.

Don't get me wrong, I get why you guys keep it. And I don't bemoan people who have it. But to be mad that CAF didn't up a Spec level so you take out on those making less than you speaks volumes of a person's character.

We did get a EI, just not the same % as Std folks, OR Spec 2. I say throw rocks at those Spec 2 money hogs!

Personally? My best 5 just took a positive jump, my wife is happy.

We are all cogs in the wheel. Some of us meet the enemy and some don't. But every roll is important and is needed. And contributes to the battle space.

I totally agree. Seriously.

I’d be supportive of standard, Spec 1 and 2 being revamped. Maybe Standard, Enhanced and Operational pay rates or soemthin.

Cpl, MMT, posted to 12 Wing clothing stores? Standard. Same mbr posted to HMCS? Operational.

AES Op MWO posted to 402 Sqn? Enhanced. Posted to CFLRS? Standard. Posted to 407 flying position? Operational.

Something like that might be a start.

 

[Quirky]

If you are in fact a supervisor do you deny your people leave while telling them they are more important than any other trade?

All the time. That’s in our SOPs.

 

[dimsum]

I’d be supportive of standard, Spec 1 and 2 being revamped. Maybe Standard, Enhanced and Operational pay rates or soemthin.

Cpl, MMT, posted to 12 Wing clothing stores? Standard. Same mbr posted to HMCS? Operational.

AES Op MWO posted to 402 Sqn? Enhanced. Posted to CFLRS? Standard. Posted to 407 flying position? Operational.

If an AES Op goes from 407 Sqn to CFLRS, they just lost AIRCRA, potentially HD, and drop in Spec Pay. That's worse off than now.

Not sure how happy an AES Op would go to a staff job with that disincentive.