All Things Negligent Discharge (merged)

[MJP]

I wonder how many of the NDs are due to lack of familiarity with the weapons?  We are training and sending a good portion of personnel that don't handle weapons on a regular basis.  No regular usage means no confidence and increases the likelyhood that some sort of safety violation will occur.

 

[Love793]

Simple solution to that. Handle them more often, teach them propperly and don't coddle troops when they do handle them.

 

[chris_log]

I wonder how many of the NDs are due to lack of familiarity with the weapons?  We are training and sending a good portion of personnel that don't handle weapons on a regular basis.  No regular usage means no confidence and increases the likelyhood that some sort of safety violation will occur.

Indeed. It would be interesting to see the MOCs/Units of the people convicted of having NDs outside of the recruits. I would imagine that many of these may come from CS/CSS units who don't get enough time to do weapons trg, especially on weapons like the C9/C6/9mm.

Also, could the increase in stats be a result of an increase in the reporting of NDs? I've heard tales of NDs at the unit level being dealt with informally as opposed to with charges.

For MJP, was it hard giving up your old unit avatar for your new loggie one? 

 

[MikeL]

NDs happen in Infantry units too; on my tour I know of two NDs with rifles that were done by Reg Force Infantrymen in the BG. An another one ND by a Reserve Infantryman who fired off the smoke grenades on a vehicle.. in KAF...; people who aren't qualified on the vehicle shouldn't assume they know what they're doing an start hitting buttons.. especially red ones.

 

[chris_log]

NDs happen in Infantry units too; on my tour I know of two NDs with rifles that were done by Reg Force Infantrymen in the BG. An another one ND by a Reserve Infantryman who fired off the smoke grenades on a vehicle.. in KAF...; people who aren't qualified on the vehicle shouldn't assume they know what they're doing an start hitting buttons.. especially red ones.

I didn't mean to sound like I was accusing CS/CSS types of being the CF's ND culprits (I'm a loggie myself). I was just musing as to whether we (in the support world) get enough weapons trg and if this lack of trg corresponds into higher ND rates vis a vis cbt arms units.

 

[dapaterson]

Best court-martial quote of all time:

"Oh no, not again" - Inf major after a second ND into an Iltis on a single tour...

 

[1feral1]

Two UD's on my tour, one using a Para-Minimi by a TPR (not long into the trip), the other a MAG 58, used by a SGT (two days before we flew out of Baghdad). Both were RAAC (Armoured)

This cost that SGT $1600 fine and he lost a citation for action against the enemy. The bullet whizzed between two heads at that, and if looks could kill.

The cause for both UDs were failure to complete the proper drills in sequence as directed by the current MLW (Manual of Land Warfare) for each weapon type.

Familiarity breeds contempt.

OWDU

 

[vonGarvin]

The article already has the information you seek.  It said that the majority were entry-level privates and officer cadets.  Though in my day, we rarely handled ammunition with our firearms, I believe that the case now is perhaps a bit different.  Also remember that an "ND" with blank ammo is also charged (er..chargeable). 

 

[chris_log]

The article already has the information you seek.  It said that the majority were entry-level privates and officer cadets.  Though in my day, we rarely handled ammunition with our firearms, I believe that the case now is perhaps a bit different.  Also remember that an "ND" with blank ammo is also charged (er..chargeable).

I was referring to the 36% that aren't done by recruits.

You brought up another point, are trg centers handing out charges for NDs with blanks more often? (I don't know, so I'm asking) 

 

[1feral1]

Last week the Infantry Battalion I am contracted to had two UDs within a week, one with a F88SA1 (AUGA2) rifle, the other with F89A1-P (Minimi), both with blanks.

In the Australian Army a UD with blanks carries the same severity as using ball. Charges are mandatory.

After a UD, the weapon is cleared, quarantined and sent to an armourer 'as is' for an inspection IAW current EMEI instructions on UDs, and then followed by a complete tech inspection IAW the weapons own EMEI. Investigation follows on the evidence provided by an armourer, adn if the weapon is at fault, the outcome for the soldier is different. I have seen only a few of mechanical faults, as the result is usually that of the operator.

Any UD using blanks MUST be treated as if it was live ammo. Perhaps if soldiers are told this, followed by discipline by example, they will take their weapons handling on Ex more serious, as it can cost them money, and embarassment. 

EMEIs are our CFTOs.

Cheers,

OWDU

 

[Dissident]

An another one ND by a Reserve Infantryman who fired off the smoke grenades on a vehicle.. in KAF...

Some rather unfortunate consequences came out of that one.

There was a rumor of someone trying to clear a pistol this way on tour:
1) Remove loaded mag
2) Cycle the action x2
3) Lock slide to the rear
4) Insert loaded mag
5) Release the slide
6) Fire the action
7) *Puzzled look
8) Repeat steps 1 through 7 eleven more times.

[me=Dissident]sigh[/me]

 

[MJP]

Indeed. It would be interesting to see the MOCs/Units of the people convicted of having NDs outside of the recruits. I would imagine that many of these may come from CS/CSS units who don't get enough time to do weapons trg, especially on weapons like the C9/C6/9mm.

Also, could the increase in stats be a result of an increase in the reporting of NDs? I've heard tales of NDs at the unit level being dealt with informally as opposed to with charges.

I wasn't thinking so much the actual CSS units themselves but the people from other parts of the CF drawn in to those units to augment them.  Those for the most part are the people that never get to handle weapons that I was thinking of.  I know that most CSS people at an actual Svc Bn get trained on the weapons, not enough but more than some.

For MJP, was it hard giving up your old unit avatar for your new loggie one? 

Nah it took me nearly a year to do it....so I was ready for it.

 

[chris_log]

I wasn't thinking so much the actual CSS units themselves but the people from other parts of the CF drawn in to those units to augment them.  Those for the most part are the people that never get to handle weapons that I was thinking of.  I know that most CSS people at an actual Svc Bn get trained on the weapons, not enough but more than some.

So people posted in from more 'garrison-ish' positions who have not handled a weapon for months/years?

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Some rather unfortunate consequences came out of that one.

There was a rumor of someone trying to clear a pistol this way on tour:
1) Remove loaded mag
2) Cycle the action x2
3) Lock slide to the rear
4) Insert loaded mag
5) Release the slide
6) Fire the action
7) *Puzzled look
8) Repeat steps 1 through 7 eleven more times.

[me=Dissident]sigh[/me]

EDITED

Just checked the PAM and the fol is the way to unload the pistol:

remove the magazine from the pistol and place it in
the pistol compartment of the holster;
disengage the safety catch if applied;
cant the pistol slightly to the left and grasp the slide, pulling it back slowly (a round may or may not be ejected);
examine the body and chamber to ensure that they
are clear and allow the slide to go forward;
place an empty magazine on the weapon;
pointing the pistol in a safe direction, operate the trigger;

 

[George Wallace]

So people posted in from more 'garrison-ish' positions who have not handled a weapon for months/years?

No.  Not really.  As has been pointed out in several posts, there are several reasons that all lead down to one, no matter the Trade, no matter the rank, no matter the location, and that is simply familiarity with the weapon that the person is handling.  If a person is not familiar and competent in their weapons handling, they will likely have a ND, be it a sidearm or a crew served weapon, with live or blank rounds.

Proper TOETs are important to know and practice.

 

[Armymedic]

Your above drill needs to include "visually and physically ensure chamber is clear" after locking the slide to the rear.

I don't have the PAM, but how could it be any other way with our issued pistol?

 

[chris_log]

No.  Not really.  As has been pointed out in several posts, there are several reasons that all lead down to one, no matter the Trade, no matter the rank, no matter the location, and that is simply familiarity with the weapon that the person is handling.  If a person is not familiar and competent in their weapons handling, they will likely have a ND, be it a sidearm or a crew served weapon, with live or blank rounds.

Proper TOETs are important to know and practice.

Remedied by more training, IMHO. I know personally that right now I wouldn't be comfortable handling a Browning, C9 or grenade if I had one handed to me. I think I'd be fine with a C7, considering that I've done the drills for it countless times, but anything else...

 

[deh]

Cause the info in the pam is wrong IIRC.

It's supposed to be:

1) Remove loaded mag
2) Cycle the action x2
3) Lock slide to the rear
4) Release the slide
5) Insert loaded mag
6) Fire the action

I have been guilty of the

remove mag
rack round out of chamber (catch in mid air for style points)
jam finger in mag well
pull trigger
pray

Not recently mind you, I play by the book now.  Sometimes you can be too familiar with a weapon and forget to treat it as such.  From an 00010-010 which i am sure is binary for something rude. 

 

[George Wallace]

How many times have you seen someone cock twice, then remove the mag?  It happens quite often.  Thankfully, most catch their mistake and conduct a proper unload before they 'fire' the action.  This is why I agree with all who want more wpns handling done (correctly).

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I wonder how many of the NDs are due to lack of familiarity with the weapons?  We are training and sending a good portion of personnel that don't handle weapons on a regular basis.  No regular usage means no confidence and increases the likelyhood that some sort of safety violation will occur.

Quite often the 'offender' is just dog tired and not focused on what they are doing. Just glad to be back inside and thinking about a shower, meal and bed.