All Things Negligent Discharge (merged)

[Gunner98]

One question: Who (which country) owns the 25 m range? I've never been to KAF.

Like most things in KAF, it is a multinational and multi-organizational responsibility.

 

[TCBF]

- COMKAF owns the range.  The one in question (above) no longer exists.  The new one will be COMKAF as well.  Sign for all of the range kit at the TLS.

 

[Gunner98]

Is there a range now for new arrivals to zero or how are weapons zeroed prior to departing the wire?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Almost one year to the day I posted pretty much the "same" [see first post] article........I guess recycling news is good for the environment, saves all that pesky looking for new stuff.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/100219/canada/canada_novascotia_ns_gun_discharge_military_drapeau
Military targets weapons discharges
Fri Feb 19, 4:11 AM

Canada's military is having a problem with the negligent discharge of weapons, with more than 600 reported incidents over the past two years.
Documents from 2008-09 list more than 400 incidences of negligent weapon discharges. So far in this recording year, there have been 229 such incidents.

CBC News obtained the documents using an access to information request.
The vast majority of negligent discharges happened during training in Canada, according to the documents.

The problem was first brought to light by the Office of the Judge Advocate General (JAG) of Canadian Forces and the military claims to be taking it very seriously, fining some soldiers and putting others in detention.
Some of the charges involve little more than shooting a weapon on a firing range before receiving the final OK to do so.

The few serious charges involving injuries or worse have resulted in court marshals.
Despite this, retired colonel Michel Drapeau said these numbers are disturbing.
"This is very, very, very, serious. Having the potential to create casualties among soldiers, and it's something that is preventable, when you have 400 in a given year, there is something out of kilter here and this must be the highest ratio that I know of," Drapeau said.

Bob Bergen, a fellow at the Centre for Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary and a former journalist who covered the Canadian Armed Forces, said the military does what it can to prevent accidental firing of weapons.

"They try to do everything they can to mitigate these and reduce the risk, but let's face it, they have the machines of war," Bergen said.
"The purpose of these machines is to kill people. Yes, they want killers, but what they don't want is people dying accidentally."

There have been several extreme cases of negligent discharge of weapons. Cpl. Kevin Megeney, of Truro, N.S., was shot to death by his comrade Matthew Wilcox, of Glace Bay, N.S., while the two served in Afghanistan on March 6, 2007.

They were involved in a game of quick draw. Wilcox was court marshalled and sent to prison for four years.
During the Wilcox trial, videos surfaced showing a soldier pointing a pistol at another soldier's head and pulling the trigger. There were no bullets in the gun.

Only a small number of soldiers have been hurt by the accidental firing of guns. But the military says it is taking the problem seriously.
The last published report from the Judge Advocate General blames the problem on members who are new to the forces.

Several retired military officers also blame the increase of negligent discharge of weapons on inexperienced soldiers. But others said that due to Canada's involvement in the war in Afghanistan, there is more use of guns, which leads to the possibility of more accidents.

But regardless of the reasons, the Judge Advocate General says ultimately, the proper handling of weapons remains a leadership and training responsibility.
One retired officer who led Canadian troops in Bosnia said in his six-month command of 1,700 soldiers, there were only a couple of negligent discharges.

 

[vonGarvin]

I wonder what the Centre of Excellence for small arms has to say about this?

Just guessing, but I would offer that most of those "NDs" are with blank ammunition.  What do I induce from this?
1.  The CF understands the importance of safe weapons handling.  So much so, that it treats the negligent discharge of a blank round as seriously as those of a live round.  So, as people adapt to the rules of handling ammunition (eg: in the training system), they will make mistakes.  If that mistake is in drill, they get jacked up.  If they fire when they aren't supposed to, we use negative reinforcement, and pain (financial) to lessen the odds of them doing that again.
I suppose to lessen the numbers (eg: the statistics), the only other option to reduce the number of Summary Trials is to stop charging people for NDs.  :

 

[40below]

So here's a question:  if someone has an ND with a weapon their CoC did not ensure they were familiar with - where all does the fault lie?  The soldier who had the ND?  The supervisors who didn't ensure he was familiar with it?  The training system that didn't deliver the needed training?

There was a court martial in 2004 (I think that was the year, I'd have to look for it) but it involved an ND at Camp Julian and a Browning 9mm. The captain charged argued that it had been 10 years since he had handled or received training in his sidearm, had no confidence in his ability to use the weapon and had actually tried to turn it in to his COC in theatre but was refused. He was a left-hand shot also, and that figured in somehow. I'm sure one of you folks can dig up the judgement because it's posted, but he was found entirely guilty of the ND.

 

[dapaterson]

One retired officer who led Canadian troops in Bosnia said in his six-month command of 1,700 soldiers, there were only a couple of negligent discharges.

Gee, a peacekeeping mission, with much less ammunition and less training in advance with blank and live ammo.  You think there would be fewer incidents, perhaps?

40below:  An individual is responsible for their actions.  But their CoC is responsible to ensure their subordinates are properly trained.  If, as is alleged, this individual had not handled a pistol for 10 years, and was not provided with refresher training or validation prior to deployment then those above him should also face administrative or disciplinary action - they failed in their duty to prepare their subordinates.  As I recall, there were two instances (one witness to the second ND (through the door of a vehicle) even quoted him as saying "Oh no, not again!").

 

[40below]

Gee, a peacekeeping mission, with much less ammunition and less training in advance with blank and live ammo.  You think there would be fewer incidents, perhaps?

40below:  An individual is responsible for their actions.  But their CoC is responsible to ensure their subordinates are properly trained.  If, as is alleged, this individual had not handled a pistol for 10 years, and was not provided with refresher training or validation prior to deployment then those above him should also face administrative or disciplinary action - they failed in their duty to prepare their subordinates.  As I recall, there were two instances (one witness to the second ND (through the door of a vehicle) even quoted him as saying "Oh no, not again!").

Found a link to the judgement. Turns out not that many majors get court-martialled in any given year:

http://www.jmc-cmj.forces.gc.ca/dec/2004/rompre-mg-eng.asp

 

[Kat Stevens]

Gee, a peacekeeping mission, with much less ammunition and less training in advance with blank and live ammo.  You think there would be fewer incidents, perhaps?

I'm not sure I get your point.  The amount of ammo carried is irrelevant.  In Sarajevo, everyone was well and truly bombed up, as we were in Vukovar.  One weapon with one magazine with one round in it will create an ND no less than one weapon, 10 mags, 300 rounds.  The commonality is 1 soldier behind the controls.

 

[medicineman]

Gee, a peacekeeping mission, with much less ammunition and less training in advance with blank and live ammo.  You think there would be fewer incidents, perhaps?

No - got nothing to do with load outs, but everything to do with training, reinforcement of that training and attitude.  When I deployed in 94, we did a whole pile of live and blank training and still people had ND's here, in the States and in theatre.  Hell, our first day going to work on base with blanks, someone had an ND - and we didn't even have to have a round in the chamber at that point.  It comes down to attitude - the fact you have to remain switched on until the weapon system is "turned off" and made safe no matter what your physical or mental state is at that point in time.  Almost was guilty myself once for the same reason - body was switched on but brain wasn't - luckily for those around me I woke the (add your own expletive) up before I shot someone. 

MM

 

[Fusaki]

Now, does anyone remember how much did the 105mm ND at MSG cost?

I know it cost me a few grey hairs!

Over in C/S 3 we thought we were being mortared.

 

[noneck]

THAT does not surprise me. I've seen examples of people who were to never command troops again....be posted to greater leadership roles....and they were still right out of it.
:rage:

Don't I know it...I worked for a certain Gork "The Dork" in C Coy in 93.  I am sure you know him Middle Aged Silverback.

 

[OldSolduer]

Don't I know it...I worked for a certain Gork "The Dork" in C Coy in 93.  I am sure you know him Middle Aged Silverback.

I sure do know him. Good soldier skills, quite a dysfunctional individual. He was released a few years later....

 

[c4th]

There was a court martial in 2004 (I think that was the year, I'd have to look for it) but it involved an ND at Camp Julian and a Browning 9mm. The captain charged argued that it had been 10 years since he had handled or received training in his sidearm, had no confidence in his ability to use the weapon and had actually tried to turn it in to his COC in theatre but was refused. He was a left-hand shot also, and that figured in somehow. I'm sure one of you folks can dig up the judgement because it's posted, but he was found entirely guilty of the ND.

Worst excuse ever!  It pains me that there are educated people in the military who must have demonstrated some level of responsibility go to such great lengths to show themselves to be total idiots.  Surprise! you're going to war and you might get a weapon.  Assuming he is literate, every unit has a PAM library and the 9MM Service Pistol is not a rare publication.  At anytime at Julian the Captain could have walked up to pretty much any infantry NCO and asked to be refreshed on handling drills.  I'm sure there would have been one camp security duty.  Personally, it takes me at least 30 minutes to write a witness statement.  I would much rather take that time and run anyone through their weapons drills.

It happens sometimes for left handed firers to experience their loaded magazines to magically leap out of their mag pouches into the mag housing, then mysteriously ready and fire.  To prevent this, remove hand from the pistol grip and put the weapon on safe.

 

[SeanNewman]

Sorry I am late to this thread, but I did Cntl+F what I was looking for and did not find that it has been discussed.

There is one simple factor that more candidates trg = more NDs (all other things being equal), that's obvious.

However, has anyone connected a potential link between an increase in NDs and the use of civilians weapons instructors on training bases? 

Has anyone one here been on the receiving end of small arms instruction in St Jean recently?  Care to comment?

 

[Armymedic]

There is no increase in the amount of NDs...the increase is in the number of charges being laid for NDs.

From the CBC website:

Between April 1, 2008, and March 31, 2009, there were 400 convictions for negligent weapon discharges. So far in this recording year, there have been 229 such incidents.

If you listen closely to the reporting, THAT is the issue. Discipline is much stricter than it was before.

There are no statistics IRT the actual numbers of NDs, and it would be irresponsible for anyone to surmise there is any sort of trend in those numbers.

 

[SeanNewman]

I'm not so sure I agree with that statement.  I have first-hand knowledge of a certain institution being less strict with NDs than ever, to the point where they are not even charged in certain circumstances.

 

[Armymedic]

I do not care if you agree or not. There are facts and then there is specualtion. There is enough back-lash launched ill will floating around about the CF in the Cdn public that the thought that we are gun totin', civilian killing renegade cowboys for the NDP to start calling for more civilian oversight upon us. Stupid comments like those you just posted in your last 2 posting do nothing but help that ill will.

If you go back to the early 90's, when we CF soliders were considered a national embarrasment, then by all means, continue with your unsubstatiated innuendo.

 

[c4th]

Has anyone one here been on the receiving end of small arms instruction in St Jean recently?  Care to comment?

I see the end product.  It is adequate enough to eliminate ND's.  If there are instuctors from St Jean here, I would like to PM with them.

 

[ballz]

However, has anyone connected a potential link between an increase in NDs and the use of civilians weapons instructors on training bases? 

Has anyone one here been on the receiving end of small arms instruction in St Jean recently?  Care to comment?

I didn't notice any differences between the Commissionaires and the military instructors knowledge of the handling drills.

With the practice of just trying to force the handling drills into the skulls of the students and not making much any emphasis on the mechanics of how the rifle actually works, I actually thought the Commissionaires sometimes made better weapons instructors.

They weren't prone to screaming at a stressed out student who was trying to remember a sequence of motions for reasons unknown to said student.

So those are my comments as a recent (August) grad from St. Jean. Here's where the disclaimer in my signature comes into play:

I think the rifle-handing curriculum at St. Jean was *waaaay* too heavy with handling drills and not nearly enough theory about the actual rifle and how it works. People couldn't remember the drills the day after the handling test because they just didn't understand why it was important to remove the magazine before cycling the action on an unload, etc. We had 3 NDs on my course of I think 45 that went into the field for the last 2 weeks.