All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)

[Lumber]

There you go, now we have it.  Seems that our new officers are treated even worse than our new NCMs.

Hell, some days, even I can't find answers on the DWAN.    :facepalm:

Just use the search function! It never leads you astray...

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . .  as I am totally new to the military life/straight out of bmoq.  . . .

"Back in the day" (when the earth was cooling) HCAs were expected to spring fully formed and ready to go from the womb.  They, even as lowly subalterns, were the ones who were supposed to be the experts of all things administration - otherwise what reason were they there.  Of course, back then, most of us either came from the ranks or reclassified from another officer MOC (usually cbt arms) - some of us both.  Regardless of your short time in the military, you must have been exposed to at least the basics of staff duties.  What are they teaching on officers' basic courses?

. . . I have been advised to speak with an rsm which I plan on doing when back on base next week. . . .

While there may be a plethora of Regimental Sergeants Major within the boundaries of Petawawa, individuals do not usually seek out just any odd one as he passes by.  If you are posted to a unit and you have need of advice of someone of that rank, experience and position then you seek it from "the" RSM (and always in capitals) of that unit.  However, as a subaltern (okay, "sub-lieutenant", since you are so Navy that you immediately need to grow fuzz on your face) you should be seeking your advice from the Adjutant (or Senior Subaltern if there is an officer who seemingly fills that role).  It's not that the RSM can't, won't or shouldn't help you.  It's just that new subbies shouldn't be providing fodder for him to make jokes about how thick new junior officers are.  He already knows, just don't make it easy for him.

 

[Lumber]

It's just that new subbies shouldn't be providing fodder for him to make jokes about how thick new junior officers are.  He already knows, just don't make it easy for him.

Thinks must work a little differently in the Army/AF. While I wouldn't go to coxn for advice on staff work (as their are a plethora of subbies and Lt(N)s around to help you with that) we were always encouraged to seek out the Coxn for advice on other matters, such as morale, discipline, dress, etc. As a SLt (since we don't arrive on ship as A/SLts anymore) if I had a question that I thought the Coxn knew the answer to, I'd go right to him. I always approached the Coxn with the respect his experience deserves, and I think they appreicated my acknowledgement of their expertise.

Also, plain and simple, no Officer of any rank (even an OCdt/NCdt) should be affraid to approach the Coxn, RSM, CSM, etc.

 

[ModlrMike]

Also, plain and simple, no Officer of any rank (even an OCdt/NCdt) should be affraid to approach the Coxn, RSM, CSM, etc.

You're right, for the most part. I wouldn't seek their counsel on something that was a personal issue for me such as this.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Thinks must work a little differently in the Army/AF.  . . .

Somewhat, and then there is that 1959 amalgam of the RCAMC and medical elements of the RCN and RCAF, the CFMS Medical Branch RCMS.  Depending on when, where, who and the phases of the moon you could get a mix of all three.  We were the original purple suiters - even before unification.  In eras now long past the development of inexperienced junior officers could be hit or miss - that is why I noted before that most HCAs (and I'm assuming the subbie is an HCA) were usually former NCOs, WOs or officers from another MOC; they brought their military experience with them to the branch.  I cringe at the thought of how newly minted RCMS officers are getting that important experience, especially since porlier maritimer15 indicates his next few months will mainly be spent studying a distance learning package at home.  However, since the young sub-lieutenant is at 2 Fd Amb, I would suggest that he embrace things in an "Army" way.  That is not to say that he shouldn't ask questions, even of the RSM, but really, it's not the RSM's job to coach junior officers in minor staff duties.  And while the RSM will be the CO's primary advisor relating to matters of dress and deportment, he should not be directly making decisions relating to an officer's request such as this, or at the least he should not be seen to be doing so - the RSM is not in this officer's chain of command.

I did ask my immediate supervisor and his answer was to go find answers on dwan yesterday after I received access, and try I did but with limited success. . . . . . They have me go in twice a week for "job shadowing" which so far has meant photocopying.. lol. 

And here I find the DS solution; his "immediate supervisor" (I'm hoping he means an officer) told him what do.  If I had been the "supervisor" in this instance (and I have been in similar scenarios - on both sides) I would have done the exact thing, told him to look it up, only in my day I probably would have said look it up in the CFP 121.  That's how he gets experience in minor staff duties, by finding the official references, preparing the correspondence and then having the "supervisor" (gleefully waiting with the red pencil) review his work.  Of course, being the SOB that I am, once I saw the topic of the request I'd probably tell him to prepare a service paper on the wearing of beards in the CF.  There is probably more to him being told to go away and find the format elsewhere, because, really, asking permission to grow a beard is an insignificant matter.  It is, however, an excellent learning opportunity for a young officer.  If it was a private (or OS) asking the question, I wouldn't make such a deal about it.  Oh, and since he has that job of the lowest of the lowest officer - i/c photocopying - he could probably do what most have done in centuries past, ask a clerk, there's usually one or two close by the photocopier.

And since he is seemingly in need of assistance of how he should conduct himself, here are some nuggets courtesy of Michael O'Leary.

The Senior Subaltern; guidance for young officers
The Young Officer and Staff Duties

 

[BinRat55]

Truly laughable. Here it is - a YO walks into an office, not quite knowing what to do or how to go about it, displays confusion and next thing you know, there are 4 Sr NCOs in an argument over it!

Welcome to the Regt.

RSM - let's go for cheese doodles.

On a serious note - this young officer will someday be an OC - maybe even a CO. Definitely an AO or an Adj. I'll bet he will know the parts of a memo! Remember - lead by example!

 

[MARS]

...since you are so Navy that you immediately need to grow fuzz on your face)...

:rofl:

that was awesome!

 

[markymark500]

Hi, I am currently a serving member who has PCAT medical restrictions for shaving. I am going on a leadership course soon and and want to make sure my beard is within the CF regs. Does anyone know where you can find the actual CF beard standands? I have searched throuh the QRNO's and have only found very vauge information. Thanks!

 

[dangerboy]

You are going on a leadership course and have never heard of the CF Dress Manual?  That will have all your answers.

 

[mariomike]

CANADIAN FORCES DRESS INSTRUCTIONS
http://www.2672paratus.ca/documents/CFDressInstr2011.pdf

 

[57Chevy]

I have searched throuh the QRNO's and have only found very vauge information.

QR&O's
17.03 - BEARDS AND MOUSTACHES

The wearing of beards and moustaches is subject to any restrictions ordered by the Chief of the Defence Staff.




Facial hair in the military
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Canada

The Canadian Forces permits moustaches, provided they be neatly trimmed and do not pass beyond the corners of the mouth. Generally speaking, beards are not permitted to CF personnel with the following exceptions:
•Members wearing the naval uniform ashore (tradition); seagoing personnel must now shave daily.
•Members of an infantry pioneer platoon (tradition)
•Members who must maintain a beard due to religious requirements (Muslims, Sikhs or orthodox Jews, for example)
•Members with a medical condition which precludes shaving

These exceptions notwithstanding, in no case is a beard permitted without a moustache, and only full beards may be worn (not goatees, van dykes, etc.).

Personnel with beards may still be required to modify or shave off the beard, as environmental or tactical circumstances dictate (e.g., to facilitate the wearing of a gas mask).

Beards are also allowed to be worn by personnel conducting OPFOR duties.

 

[Tibbson]

Hi, I am currently a serving member who has PCAT medical restrictions for shaving. I am going on a leadership course soon and and want to make sure my beard is within the CF regs. Does anyone know where you can find the actual CF beard standands? I have searched throuh the QRNO's and have only found very vauge information. Thanks!

And a good way to make extra points on a leadership course is to know that it is QR&Os, not QRNOs. 

Its like an officer I used to work for (actually, he worked for me....I just didn't tell him that) used to talk about PPNS rather then PP&S.  Used to give us a chuckle each time he said it.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

My bunkmate on CLC was a Herbie who called them the "Q and ROs".  ;D

 

[Poacher434]

It'd be funny to see a MCpl teach a BMQ without knowing what the CF Dress manual is

 

[AbdullahD]

QR&O's
17.03 - BEARDS AND MOUSTACHES

The wearing of beards and moustaches is subject to any restrictions ordered by the Chief of the Defence Staff.




Facial hair in the military
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Canada

The Canadian Forces permits moustaches, provided they be neatly trimmed and do not pass beyond the corners of the mouth. Generally speaking, beards are not permitted to CF personnel with the following exceptions:
•Members wearing the naval uniform ashore (tradition); seagoing personnel must now shave daily.
•Members of an infantry pioneer platoon (tradition)
•Members who must maintain a beard due to religious requirements (Muslims, Sikhs or orthodox Jews, for example)
•Members with a medical condition which precludes shaving

These exceptions notwithstanding, in no case is a beard permitted without a moustache, and only full beards may be worn (not goatees, van dykes, etc.).

Personnel with beards may still be required to modify or shave off the beard, as environmental or tactical circumstances dictate (e.g., to facilitate the wearing of a gas mask).

Beards are also allowed to be worn by personnel conducting OPFOR duties.

Is it possible to be linked to this manual? I looked at the dress regulations under the beard heading which only specified for Sikhs and under the religious heading it only showed for hijabs. The manual that Mariomike linked seems to be from 2011... so am I missing something like an idiot or is it a separate manual?

as a side note a recruiter I talked to personally, said I would only have to declare I was Muslim to keep my beard. Is it possible to view the QRNO (hehe) I have been copy pasting or screensotting a lot of this stuff for my Muslim buddies who are interested in joining.

Thanks
Abdullah

 

[George Wallace]

Is it possible to be linked to this manual? I looked at the dress regulations under the beard heading which only specified for Sikhs and under the religious heading it only showed for hijabs. The manual that Mariomike linked seems to be from 2011... so am I missing something like an idiot or is it a separate manual?

as a side note a recruiter I talked to personally, said I would only have to declare I was Muslim to keep my beard. Is it possible to view the QRNO (hehe) I have been copy pasting or screensotting a lot of this stuff for my Muslim buddies who are interested in joining.

Thanks
Abdullah

GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND.  Just Google the above "QR&O's 17.03 - BEARDS AND MOUSTACHES" and you get this:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-17.page

Just a note:  I have known many Muslims in the CAF and they have been 'clean shaven'.  Read our posts on the disadvantages of wearing beards and gas masks and you will understand.  If having to shave is such a big deal, then perhaps joining the CAF MAY NOT be a suitable choice to make.

 

[dapaterson]

The proper reference.

 

[AbdullahD]

GOOGLE IS YOUR FRIEND.  Just Google the above "QR&O's 17.03 - BEARDS AND MOUSTACHES" and you get this:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-17.page

Just a note:  I have known many Muslims in the CAF and they have been 'clean shaven'.  Read our posts on the disadvantages of wearing beards and gas masks and you will understand.  If having to shave is such a big deal, then perhaps joining the CAF MAY NOT be a suitable choice to make.

Thanks. I should have not been lazy and I should have thought to use google. Especially on this site lol.

The CAF position on beards as it stands now I have 0 issue at all. I will shave it for operational purposes if I need to, I have no qualms with that at all. All I am doing is checking things off the list to show other people that you can practice Islam 100% and be in the forces. I have talked to a recruiter and what he told me was enough, the other thread were we talked about exemptions was workable. But having something in writing for the larger Muslim population means a lot to a lot of people.

I know many many Muslims who wish they could fight daesh who are Canadian citizens and a lot of what I do here is gather info to show  them that joining the CAF is A way to do it. I dont mean to rock the boat, I should have been less lazy... but to be honest I had just woken up and my wife was letting me sleep in So lazy I was

Abdullah

p.s I have reviewed the link (thanks again) and the only place I can find a religious allowance for Muslim members to have beards is on wikipedia. It is in neither of the two manuals, at least that ive seen. Now thank god I am happy with the gaurantees that exist, I'm just now curious to where the wikipedia info came from. They dont link a reference that I saw at least. I dont expect anyone to help me, It's just some enjoyable digging. It is just my mood of the day.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Beards are allowed for religious accommodation. Just like for the Sikhs. Quit worrying and parsing the directives. If the wearing of facial hair becomes an operational problem, your chain of command will provide you with the options.

 

[Loachman]

The first CF Muslim that I knew was a Sigoid in 2 Air Reserve Wing Downsview in the early 1990s. He had a beard even back then.

Supposedly, the Minister of National Defence developed a mask that could be worn over a beard, but I have seen no details about that.