Afghanistan: Why we should be there (or not), how to conduct the mission (or not) & when to leave

[punisher_6d]

I think the point that was trying to be made was if a large percentage of stories reported are for their attention grabbing and popular interest potential it can leave people with a poor understanding of things beyond superficial facts and soundbites. It's the much talked about shift from news that informs to news that entertains. That politicians exploit this shallow understanding is to be expected in an adversarial election system.

True; however, I don’t believe this is the case when it comes to the media reporting stories about Afghanistan and what our troops are doing over there.  The Canadian media (and certain reporters) are doing a very admirable job in reporting from the front lines of the conflict, ensuring the soldier’s stories are told and seen by the masses back home.  That’s more than a lot of other countries can say. 

I think the problem in clearly articulating the mission to the Canadian public at large is the responsibility of the politicians and the military brass themselves.  I’ve attended a few of the Red Rally’s and what I hear is the same rhetoric, scripted lines and sound bites.  Reporters are not stupid people and they latch-on pretty quick if they feel they are being fed the party line.  Rosie DiManno in yesterday’s star had a rather well-balanced account of the recent Red Rally in Toronto: http://www.thestar.com/article/249751  It’s an interesting read and exposes the reality and dangers of trying to sway public opinion for the mission this way.

Politicians and the military need to convince the media to report on the good that our troops are doing in Afghanistan – and they are doing A LOT of good over there.  One way to do this would be to give up-dated media briefings on the situation and progress there on the ground weekly (I believe these are already in the works and it’s about time it happened.) 

Another would be for politicians to step up to the plate and stress the importance of the mission during times of crisis and tragedy.  I realize with the recent cabinet shuffle some of the ‘new’ ministers may have been caught off their feet with the untimely deaths of three members of the Vandoo BG, but really, the politicians should be the ones in front of the glare of TV cameras not some poor LCol left to explain to the Canadian public why these soldiers did not die in vain. 

Thirdly, would be for the military to sell to the general populace the benefits of the reconstruction efforts that our troops are engaged in in Afghanistan.  It’s the good news that Canadians want to hear.  To do this the military needs to ‘channel’ the embedded media to go along with the PRT, medics and others who are helping the Afghan people rebuild their lives.  Of course this can be extremely difficult to do since many newly-arrived reporters to Afghanistan only want to cover the ‘sexy’ combat missions – the reality, dangers and tragedy of which played themselves out in graphic detail in newspapers and television screens this past week …….

My two Afghani’s worth.       

 

[canadianblue]

In reference to what In Hoc Signo said, you'll find varying levels of support in all parties right now, even the NDP. However when explaining the mission to people it would be for the best if it wasn't ramped up with some of the rhetoric which has become a staple on some threads. The best way to win people over is through intelligent discussion, and coherent arguments. Whenever people ask me about the mission I always ensure that I talk about the kind of progress we're making, and the consequences if we did an immediate pullout.

 

[vonGarvin]

I was at the Peacekeepers banquet on 9 Aug here in Dartmouth (doing my Padre thing...prayers, grace etc) and the guest speaker was Peter Stoffer, NDP and MP for Sackville. Peter is 100% behind our troops and understands the mission....his boss J. Layton does not like him very much but Peter is a solid guy and he has solid support in this riding and will continue to win it for the NDP. why ? because he supports troops and veterans and I believe is in politics because he believes in Canada and not just there for himself. He is in the wrong party in my humble opinion and I told him so...he laughed and told me I wasn't the first to say that.

I like Peter Stoffer (from what I've read about him).  He represents, in my opinion, the core traditional values of the NDP, who have gone from a social-action platform ("social credit?") to a full left wing wacko organisation.

 

[punisher_6d]

Interesting (read the chai leaves here) ....... 

This coming from Dion:

"He said he was not interested in bringing down the government if the Tories don't commit to pulling the troops out of a combat role in the throne speech.

"I'm really reluctant to start this discussion in saying 'I want this government to be down,'" said Dion. "That's not what I want, I want the government to do the right thing." "

Harper needs to commit to troop pullout date: Dion

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070826/dion_qp_070826/20070826?hub=TopStories

 

[canadianblue]

I'm not sure what you mean by "social credit", social credit was by no means left wing, and I don't think they have ever been considered progressive. My grandfather was a Socred MLA in Alberta and the party was firmly conservative both in the fiscal and social sense. The NDP however has traditionally had strong ties to organized labour, the social gospel movement, agrarian populism, etc. I'm not sure what their policy towards defence was while under leaders such as Ed Broadbent [military experience with the RCAF], Stephen Lewis, and Tommy Douglas. At one time during the 80's the NDP was actually first in the poll's, and many Canadian's preferred Ed Broadbent as Prime Minister over John Turner and Brian Mulroney.

 

[vonGarvin]

I'm not sure what you mean by "social credit",

I put the "?" after "social credit" because I can't remember what the NDP was before they were "new".

 

[RangerRay]

I do remember that under Broadbent in the 1980's, the NDP was solidly for Canada to leave NATO.  I also remember thinking that they were slightly to the right of the Communist Party.

As for Taliban Jack, I am sure that he is well aware of the real situation in Afghanistan.  However for political purposes, he chooses to ignore that reality in order to get the left-wing Liberal vote.  I think that he is attempting to make the NDP "the" leftist party of Canada by trying to get the support of those who hold very left-wing views, yet usually vote Liberal.  He does not appear to be interested in courting the centralist Tory/Grit voter.

 

[RangerRay]

I put the "?" after "social credit" because I can't remember what the NDP was before they were "new".

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (CCF)?

 

[McG]

Canada has pledged to support the Afghan Compact.  As opposed to dithering while the opposition plays political football around 2009, our government should be loudly making its case to extend for another 24 months.  Why?  Because, Feb 2011 will ensure we play our bit for the duration of the international community's commitment to Afghanistan (a commitment we endorsed) to support until the end of 2010.  It will also give us a handfull of months to wind down & hand-off to Afghan forces.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

How utterly modern-Canadian.  We finally have a mission where we can change things, and the pressure is on to leave the job unfinished, and let it all go for naught.  It is like liberating Holland, and fighting through the Schelt, and then saying, home by Christmas. Hope the Germans learned their lessons and don't take it all back once we pull out.
Our grandfathers had the balls to stay the course before.  From failing hands they passed us the torch.  Too bad the media is calling for a fire ban.

 

[Donut]

Canada has pledged to support the Afghan Compact. 

Hmmm, where did I see that before...

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49908/post-607192.html#msg607192    8)

+1, ModlrMike

 

[George Wallace]

How utterly modern-Canadian.  We finally have a mission where we can change things, and the pressure is on to leave the job unfinished, and let it all go for naught.   It is like liberating Holland, and fighting through the Schelt, and then saying, home by Christmas. Hope the Germans learned their lessons and don't take it all back once we pull out.
Our grandfathers had the balls to stay the course before.  From failing hands they passed us the torch.  Too bad the media is calling for a fire ban.

Sometimes it makes you wonder if we should change that statement to read: "To failing hands they passed us the torch."  It really is frustrating at times.

 

[Brockvegas]

Sometimes it makes you wonder if we should change that statement to read: "To failing hands they passed us the torch."  It really is frustrating at times.

Agreed, but it's not the hands that recieve the torch that are failing, but those who are coaching the team.

 

[MarkOttawa]

The circle is squared:
http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Afghan/2007/08/28/4451303-sun.html

Liberal MP and defence critic Denis Coderre rejected the view that the Afghan mission is a bust.

"The Conservative approach regarding Afghanistan is a failure, but the mission itself is not a failure. It is noble," he said...

Why do not the media and the government ask M. Duceppe how the "Conservative approach" differs from the Liberal one when the Martin government committed the CF to Kandahar in 2005? 

Meanwhile this appears in the Globe's Report on Business (B7); pity that it's not in the main news section where a lot more readers might see it and get some appreciation of what really is going on in much of Afstan:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070829.IBAFGHAN29/TPStory/TPInternational/Asia/

Associated Press

August 29, 2007

KABUL -- About 150,000 people subscribe to cellphone service each month in Afghanistan and there's "no end in sight" to the growth, the country's Communications Minister said yesterday.

Speaking after the launch of the nation's fourth cellphone service provider, Amirzai Sangin predicted the telecommunication and information technology sector would "be the engine of growth for Afghanistan."

Afghanistan's economy is growing quickly, due mostly to the infusion of foreign aid since the downfall of the Taliban in 2001. But the country's living standards are among the lowest in the world and it faces mounting security problems.

Its economy is predominantly rural, and trade and industry are badly hampered by crumbling roads and chronic electricity shortages. Not including the illicit trade in opium, the nation's few exports include dried fruit and carpets.

But like in other developing nations, cellphone service providers have been doing brisk business, bringing communication to poor villagers who until four years rarely, if ever, used a telephone.

"In Afghanistan, the majority of our people will be connected through mobile phones," Mr. Sangin said. "...We have gone straight into the age of personal communication."

Calling rates are currently about 10 cents a minute, with the cheapest phone cards on sale for the equivalent of $1. Coverage is generally available in all the country's 34 provinces.

Mr. Sangin said the country's telecommunications and IT sector employed about 50,000 people and was crucial to opening opportunities for trade between districts as well as other countries.

So far, 12 per cent of Afghanistan's 25 million people have cellphones [emphasis added].

Yesterday, Emirates Telecommunication Corp., or Etisalat, became the fourth service provider to compete in the Afghan market. The United Arab Emirates company said it had invested $300-million to set up service.

Salem Al Kendi, Etisalat's Afghan chief executive officer, predicted brisk growth in Afghanistan and said the company hoped to move into other countries in the region.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Journeyman]

I put the "?" after "social credit" because I can't remember what the NDP was before they were "new".

Canadian Communist Party (Marxist-Leninst) and Union of University Professors and Main-Stream Media, Local 2652
-- NDP was easier for the pseudo-intellectual to remember. 

 

[Good2Golf]

Mark, the growth of the mobile market is one of the solid indicators that Afghanistan is well on its way to developing into a dynamic member of the international community.  I would see Afghans with 2 or 3 cell phones (one for each provider -- roaming charges are very high compared to having a second or third phone, believe it or not) and the latest songs downloaded as mp3 ring tones was also an indication of status for the user (most recent release from Peshawar or Islamabad was a big thing) -- people would actually let their phones ring for some time so that others the "happen to hear" that the user was "connected and cool".  Once technology gets hold not only as a tool but as a status symbol, the train is out of the station!

G2G

 

[MarkOttawa]

Andrew Coyne tells the truth about opposition positions on Afstan--though I suspect he's too optimistic about Canadians generally:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=0a59f5fa-994c-4676-8355-5bd7d814c2ed&p=1

Let us now give thanks for Gilles Duceppe. Let us erect statues to his memory. Let school children across the country recite poems in his honour. For the Bloc Quebecois leader, though he certainly did not intend it, may have single-handedly saved the Afghanistan mission, and with it Canada's reputation as a reliable ally...

...Mr. Duceppe's statement last week, demanding that the Prime Minister state explicitly, in what is expected to be a new Speech from the Throne this fall, that Canadian troops will be withdrawn from combat at the expiry of the current mission, or face defeat in a confidence vote, has achieved several things...

with his customary subtlety and exquisite sense of timing, Mr. Duceppe has made hash of the opposition's careful public relations strategy: the statement came one day after two soldiers from Quebec were killed in an explosion (another had been killed a few days before), a connection Mr. Duceppe made no attempt to deny. If there is a more precise definition of cutting and running --Casualties? Get us out of here-- I do not know it.

That is indeed the closest thing we have had to an explanation of the opposition position. We know they want Canadian troops withdrawn, but until now it has never been made clear why. They can have no complaint with the mission's legality: our troops are there under a United Nations' mandate, with the support of the democratically elected government of Afghanistan. Nor, outside of the NDP, do they pretend the Afghans do not need defending. Someone has to do the fighting, they concede--just not us.

And the reason we should be excused? That much is now clear, if it was not before: Because it involves hardship, and because they hope to appeal to that section of the public that believes hardship is unnecessary -- that our enemies can be defeated without hardship, if they must be defeated at all. All that guff about having "taken our turn" was always a smokescreen...

... I suspect that the wave of revulsion Mr. Duceppe's statement has stirred in other parts of the country will wash over Quebec as well, and that this country will discover again those reserves of self-respect that are hidden to so many of its leaders.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Flip]

Mark, It could be the beginning of a change.

Second, with his customary subtlety and exquisite sense of timing, Mr. Duceppe has made hash of the opposition's careful public relations strategy: the statement came one day after two soldiers from Quebec were killed in an explosion (another had been killed a few days before), a connection Mr. Duceppe made no attempt to deny. If there is a more precise definition of cutting and running --Casualties? Get us out of here

Sometimes it's best to let the opposition try their gambit.
Let them blow themselves out.
Let them get in each others' way

Even some members of the media are saying "wait a minute".
The Bloc and the NDP are taking their position to an absurd
level, forcing the liberals to defend the mission.

Duceppes' timing is wonderful.
I will make the sad prediction that Quebec will lose more citizens
this coming weekend in traffic and there will be no call for a
policy change after that.

I don't mean to minimize the 3 deaths in discussion - just
Duceppes' reaction to them. 

Perhaps Canadians should withdraw from cottage country after labour day?

Perhaps what Mr Duceppe is reacting to, is that the three died doing
something of value to Canada.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Here's a bit of curiosity.
A collegue of mine recently had some good chat time with a Liberal backbencher, and let them know that the Liberals are pretty much looking like mouthpieces of the Taliban Jack insurrection.  The MP was stunned at this (and it was felt that the reaction was genuine), and had no idea that the message that was being put across was being recieved so poorly.  They also indicated that many Liberals are actually CF supporters (my fingers are blistering right now  ) and are not in agreement with where their "leader" is taking them. 
Perhaps instead of blasting the Liberals, a good healthy round of complaint letters and meetings from their own voters might carry some more weight.  There is a possibility that beyond the city limits of Ottawa they actually might not realize that they are shitting the bed on this one.
Guh.  I think I need a shower now.  Where's my cilice? 

 

[Brockvegas]

That hurt didn't it? 

Don't get me wrong, I harbor no secret love for the Liberals...or any other party for that matter. Maybe this could be a good thing (shudder) for us come time to discuss extending the mission in Afghanistan past Feb/09. If your colleague's experience holds true of other Liberal MP's, we may have more votes on the side that realizes *we're not finished over there yet* than we thought....