Afghan Killed by Canadian Troops - Fri. Sept. 19

[Celticgirl]

Another Afghan killed after refusing to stop for Canadian troops:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080919/afghan_killed_080919/20080919?hub=TopStories

Why don't they stop?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Why don't they stop?

And why does nobody ASK those who survive these situations why they didn't stop?

 

[JesseWZ]

This is speculation at its most and I'm well out of my lane, (I've never been to Afghanistan) but is it possible that this is being done intentionally to generate bad PR for us?

 

[geo]

... your're right - outa your lane

If the guy is a VBIED, they are trying to get close enough to blow you up.  PR has nothing to do with it.
If the guy is just a poor schmuck that isn't paying much attention to the road - busy on the phone or talking to his seatmate, then he is just a lousy driver & PR has nothing to do with it.

 

[JesseWZ]

Understood.

 

[Shadowolf]

He could be a potential VBIED, testing our reactions and seeing if he could get away with it.  Or he could just be a dumbass.  Either way, the troops followed ROE's as they were supposed to.  Good on them. 

 

[MG34]

And why does nobody ASK those who survive these situations why they didn't stop?

They are asked ..you see we render aid when the tactical situation is possible, you don't use deadly force on vehicles and just carry on your merry way down the road,there are procedures that take place. ROE escalation ie warning shots are a different matter entirely.  

 

[The Bread Guy]

They are asked ..you see we render aid when the tactical situation is possible, you don't use deadly force on vehicles and just carry on your merry way down the road,there are procedures that take place. ROE escalation ie warning shots are a different matter entirely.  

My mistake - didn't mean to impugn anybody @ the sharp end, who I know are doing what you're trained to do.

It should have been:  "Why doesn't MSM ask......"

 

[brihard]

... your're right - outa your lane

If the guy is a VBIED, they are trying to get close enough to blow you up.  PR has nothing to do with it.
If the guy is just a poor schmuck that isn't paying much attention to the road - busy on the phone or talking to his seatmate, then he is just a lousy driver & PR has nothing to do with it.

Well hang on, it was a reasonable question/hypothesis that JesseWZ brought up.

I'm not suggesting that in this particular instance this is what transpired. But, given that the enemy does have a supply of people willing to off themselves for their cause, it's not an outlandish thought to suggest that people are probing our responses either for the purpose of simple recce, or to instigate an instance in which ROE escalations result in the death of what appears to be a civilian noncombatant. The enemy knows that public perception is one of our greater weaknesses, and they know how to exploit that. Situations like that have certainly happened in Iraq. They know that one of the worst blows to our mission comes from stories appearing on CBC about Canadians killing civilians, so if they can fraudulently generate such situations, they come out ahead.

I don't think you need to jump on the guy for his comment. Though it's probably not what went down in this particular case, it's not a blisteringly idiotic idea, either.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

To give an example.. when the Insurgents killed those aid workers last month (and Canadians made a HUGE deal about it in the media) it wasn't too long after that the Taliban decided to announce that they "knew" they were Canadians and will punish any others until we pull out, etc...

My opinion is that they got lucky, we made a stink, they saw opportunity and took it.  They have PSYOPS and Public Affairs pers in the Taliban just as much as we do.

 

[Celticgirl]

Well hang on, it was a reasonable question/hypothesis that JesseWZ brought up.

I'm not suggesting that in this particular instance this is what transpired. But, given that the enemy does have a supply of people willing to off themselves for their cause, it's not an outlandish thought to suggest that people are probing our responses either for the purpose of simple recce, or to instigate an instance in which ROE escalations result in the death of what appears to be a civilian noncombatant. The enemy knows that public perception is one of our greater weaknesses, and they know how to exploit that. Situations like that have certainly happened in Iraq. They know that one of the worst blows to our mission comes from stories appearing on CBC about Canadians killing civilians, so if they can fraudulently generate such situations, they come out ahead.

I don't think you need to jump on the guy for his comment. Though it's probably not what went down in this particular case, it's not a blisteringly idiotic idea, either.

I think it's at least moderately plausible as well. After all, the Taliban don't have a uniform that identifies them. There's no big scarlett T on their chests. Anyone could be Taliban, including these so-called "dumb@ss" drivers.

In any case, I would not want to have to be one of the troops manning those checkpoints. That has to be very high stress work indeed.

 

[BKells]

Well hang on, it was a reasonable question/hypothesis that JesseWZ brought up.

I'm not suggesting that in this particular instance this is what transpired. But, given that the enemy does have a supply of people willing to off themselves for their cause, it's not an outlandish thought to suggest that people are probing our responses either for the purpose of simple recce, or to instigate an instance in which ROE escalations result in the death of what appears to be a civilian noncombatant. The enemy knows that public perception is one of our greater weaknesses, and they know how to exploit that. Situations like that have certainly happened in Iraq. They know that one of the worst blows to our mission comes from stories appearing on CBC about Canadians killing civilians, so if they can fraudulently generate such situations, they come out ahead.

I don't think you need to jump on the guy for his comment. Though it's probably not what went down in this particular case, it's not a blisteringly idiotic idea, either.

Moreover, the goal is to influence the Afghan public opinion vice the Canadian one. The en is acutely aware that winning the IO campaign is critical to winning the counter-insurgency. If they are goading us into shooting civilians, it would not surprise me in the least.

 

[The Bread Guy]

They have PSYOPS and Public Affairs pers in the Taliban just as much as we do.

And the Taliban's hands aren't tied by having to tell the truth, speeding up their process immensely.

 

[brihard]

Moreover, the goal is to influence the Afghan public opinion vice the Canadian one. The en is acutely aware that winning the IO campaign is critical to winning the counter-insurgency. If they are goading us into shooting civilians, it would not surprise me in the least.

Yeah, that too- I was thinking of info ops in the context of our domestic media, but you're absolutely right that it will impact the perceptions of the Afghans themselves. Not sure how I managed to overlook that. Not to mention the detrimental effect on morale. An ROE escalation can be perfectly justified, and the right call to make on the ground with the information at hand- but at the end of the day one of our guys has to live with having killed a civilian.

All in all, the enemy stands to get a pretty good rate of return off the death of one sufficiently committed or simply desperate person.

 

[gun runner]

Ok , can I get a quick lesson in checkpoint procedures here. Doesn't these checkpoints follow a particular staged routine? What I mean is, are there not multiple stages that the general public goes through before they arrive at an armoured checkpoint? Like for instance, footpatrols out on the perimeter of the checkpoints, then a small mounted patrol, and finally the LAVIII with the 25mm vestal virgin delivery system? Or are our boys and girls just setting up a checkpoint without "probers" out as an advance lookout? The reason I am asking is I have no idea how these are set up, and I am trying to learn what it is we are sending our troops to do at these checkpoints. Ubique

 

[The Bread Guy]

I'm guessing you're going to get either the sound of one hand clapping, or minimal info, on that question because of OPSEC.....

 

[gun runner]

Gotcha.. " just shut up and you might learn something". Thanks for the heads up. Ubique

 

[brihard]

Ok , can I get a quick lesson in checkpoint procedures here. Doesn't these checkpoints follow a particular staged routine? What I mean is, are there not multiple stages that the general public goes through before they arrive at an armoured checkpoint? Like for instance, footpatrols out on the perimeter of the checkpoints, then a small mounted patrol, and finally the LAVIII with the 25mm vestal virgin delivery system? Or are our boys and girls just setting up a checkpoint without "probers" out as an advance lookout? The reason I am asking is I have no idea how these are set up, and I am trying to learn what it is we are sending our troops to do at these checkpoints. Ubique

Can't be specific- firstly, due to OPSEC, but also because situation will always dictate how a cordon or checkpoint is set up.

Suffice to say that drivers are given more than ample notice when they are approaching one, be it physical signs or barriers, or soldiers on piquet, and that there is a full spectrum of escalation of force that is intended to be applied in progressive stages in order to enforce that cordon or checkpoint. Generally if lethal force is used, it means that either all previous warnings went unheeded, or a potentially lethal threat presented itself too quickly for anything short of lethal force to be used to immediately stop the perceived threat.

If you've received any use of force or ROE training before, it's the same kind of progression you would expect to see anywhere else. The big variable is always the tactical situation and the ground. It's a very deliberate, designed process designed to give everyone involved the possible best chance of resolving or calming a situation before shots are fired.

I know that's vague, but that's all you're going to get. Hope it helps anyway.

 

[gun runner]

When I wore the uniform, we only did local defense execises at the battery level. Plus the practice defense exercises at MILCON in Wainright. Nothing on ROE, or use of force. Sorry, we just didn't have to learn those tactics as of yet. Ubique

 

[Dariusz]

I know of cases where locals got injured in order to collect some money, rice, sheep...and so on, for their poor family, from the military forces ( nation) that injured them. :bullet: