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Afghan Detainee Mega Thread

Its all about politics. What are we supposed to do with the detainees. Ship them to Canada and let them do time in our Prisons. OR hand them over the the local government and let them deal out justice as their country sees fit.

Most of the sensationalism and perceived wrong doing is a by product of a very arrogant opposition party who think they are the only ones who have the god given right to run the country and the liberal biased media.

My personal views, and these are totally my own. If we catch them and turn them over to the locals then we also hand over the responsibility to the locals. It isn't our place to keep tabs on these guys forever. Amnesty international, the red cross and the U.N. should be there to keep an eye on everything.
All of the energy wasted in parlament over this issue could have been used for something else. Lets try to fix our own home grown detainee problem. Lets keep tabs on our pedophiles and criminals rather than some guy half a world away.
 
I wonder if GAP has hit the nail on the head. Could it be that there are quite a number of non-neutral appointees in the bureaucracy who are purposely feeding misinformation upwards to ministers, who then make public statements based on that information? 

Perhaps an investigation of the antics of bureaucrats, opposition politicians and the media who are close to the prisoner issue is in order. Something along the lines of the Somalia type of inquiry.
 
I think the Detainee argument is messed up anyway

the bleeding hearts want us out, because our "invasion"  ::) of Afghanistan is forcing our morals and culture on them, then they turn around and tell us we can't turn over people from Afghanistan, that have broken the laws of Afghanistan, in Afghanistan, to the law enforcement of Afghanistan, because they don't believe in how they might treat their prisoners based on their morals and culture.

 
Or write all the parties and tell them to stop trying to win a future election and start concentrating on the here and now of running the country.
 
c_canuk said:
I think the Detainee argument is messed up anyway

the bleeding hearts want us out, because our "invasion"  ::) of Afghanistan is forcing our morals and culture on them, then they turn around and tell us we can't turn over people from Afghanistan, that have broken the laws of Afghanistan, in Afghanistan, to the law enforcement of Afghanistan, because they don't believe in how they might treat their prisoners based on their morals and culture.

LOL I concur with every word you wrote.  Dealing with these people is like beating your  head against a brick wall, it just gets more and more painful.

Mover, again I agree with words. I would also like all parties to start concentrating on running this great country.  I would also add that I am sick and tired of the NDP and the Liberals using our troops to gain political support.  They walk over the backs over loyal  hard working individuals to gain support and votes from the very people who loath our Military and it's members.  I need to find a brick wall now.
 
Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.
http://digital.montrealgazette.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

A medieval justice, at first glance
CANADIAN GUARDS are working to improve conditions at the Kandahar penitentiary where Taliban are held
GRAHAM THOMSON C ANWEST NEWS S E RVI C EEDMONTON JOURNAL
SARPOZA PRISON, AFGHANI STAN – To step inside the Kandahar penitentiary that holds Taliban prisoners is to stumble backward into the Middle Ages.

This is a dark place of open-pit fires and heavy stone walls where inmates hang dried meat from hooks and grope their way by candlelight.

If you have ever toured the dungeons of an ancient English castle, then you have visited an Afghan prison.

The conditions are appalling and would, at first glance, seem to lend credence to allegations in Canada that Taliban prisoners suffer abuse at the hands of Afghan authorities.

However, these prisoners are not being singled out for special punishment. This is how prisoners live in Afghanistan, whether they staged an ambush against a NATO convoy or knifed someone in a fight.

Next door to the Taliban wing is the section holding the common criminals. The two are identical. Teenage boys live in slightly better conditions in the segregated juvenile section.

Then there is the women’s wing, which echoes with the heartbreaking sound of children. There are 22 children here, the youngest 5 months old, incarcerated with their mothers because they have nowhere else to go. This prison doesn’t know whether it’s medieval or Dickensian.

What’s just as shocking to Western sensibilities is learning women are jailed here for simply disobeying their husbands or rejecting an arranged marriage.

It is into this world that two guards from Canada’s Correctional Service have stepped, hoping to improve life not only for the prisoners but also the prison guards – their living conditions are as dreadful as those of the inmates.

This, after all, is a Third World prison.

“The conditions are terrible,” said Ric Fecteau, who is taking a 12-month leave of absence from his job as a supervisor at the Edmonton Maximum Institution to work here.

“They’re sleeping on a concrete floor with an Afghan-type mattress that needs to be replaced. The walls are crumbling and need to be replastered and rebuilt, so the actual conditions, the sanitary conditions, everything, is terrible.”

Since arriving here on Feb. 2, Fecteau and Linda Garwood-Filbert from the Stony Mountain Institute in Manitoba have laid the foundations for a training program – and have discovered a crucial aspect of life in here, the treatment of prisoners, is surprisingly enlightened.

“The relationship between the prison police and the inmates tells an entirely different story because you would see guards walking right in and having conversations with the prisoners,” Fecteau said. “Here are guards and prisoners being very polite with each other.”

They are also polite to Garwood-Filbert, the only woman allowed inside the male wings. The guards treat her with deference as they accompany her through the dank hallways where peering prisoners stand idly behind locked gates, apparently as curious about the Canadians as the Canadians are of them. There is no tension. Some inmates smile shyly.

Fecteau credits a large part of the relaxed atmosphere to Afghanistan’s complex world of inter-tribal relationships where many people – including the guards and prisoners – are related by blood, tradition or geography.

That goes for the Taliban prisoners. These are not the hardline “Tier 1 Taliban” who are shipped off to the maximum security Pul-i-Charkhi prison near Kabul. These are the low-level fighters who probably picked up a gun or fired a rocket because they needed a job and the Taliban pays well by Afghan standards – about $12 a day.

Fecteau is still finding his way around the Afghan system and acknowledges he can’t know everything that goes on in this medium-security prison, which he visits unannounced at least three times a week. But so far he has seen no evidence of abuse and has even taken a few of the prisoners aside and questioned them through his own interpreter.

“Does your family know you’re here?” he’ll ask them. “Is everything okay? Is there something you need to tell me? Are you being beaten?” The answer, he says, is: “No.”

“Some look quite insulted when I ask them if they’re getting enough to eat or if the staff are treating them well. They start looking a little irritated that you actually asked that question. Now, when you ask them about the conditions they’re perfectly willing to show you the damp floor, the mattresses, the blankets, the things that desperately need to get fixed. But at no point has any one of them ever raised that question (of abuse).”

After 26 years as a prison guard, Fecteau says he’d know pretty quickly if the prisoners were lying or if guards were trying to hide something from him. His relationship with his counterparts here certainly seems friendly and open.

“We try our best to treat everyone equally,” said Colonel Mohammed Ismail, who is eager to show off the prison. “It doesn’t matter whether they are Taliban, political prisoners or other criminals.”

As a journalist, I am not allowed to interview the Taliban prisoners. Speaking through an interpreter, Ismail says the “national security” prisoners are not fanatics and don’t cause trouble. The message from him is everybody gets along about as well as can be expected under Third World conditions.

Indeed, the life of prisoners is on par with conditions for many struggling Afghans on the outside.

The real hardship cases are the women jailed for disobeying sharia laws; they bring their children here if there’s no family to look after them.

“I don’t pretend to understand why they’re there but I have to respect that that’s part of the Afghan culture,” Garwood-Filbert said. “The more we respect the culture the better we can move forward with our issues.”

Those issues include training the guards, fixing up the prison and providing supplies as basic as flashlights for the guards and prisoners to use in the largely sunless cells. Canada will also provide money to expand the prison’s fledgling apprentice programs to teach inmates such employable skills as carpet-weaving and carpentry.

It is all part of the monumental task of helping build a working judicial system in a country with a patchwork of traditional, religious and codified laws where many people are illiterate. Developing a humane correctional system is as important to a functioning judicial system as are the police and the courts – and all are crucial to bringing Afghanistan into the 21st century.

“Right now, the system is not perceived by the people as being impeccable and impartial,” said Gavin Buchan, the main political adviser with Canada’s reconstruction team in Kandahar.

“If it was, that would significantly increase the government’s credibility.”

 
geo said:
Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.
http://digital.montrealgazette.com/epaper/viewer.aspx
Like I said else where, I had a 2000 word rant written but decide just to say


                                                      "SO WHAT"
 
After Holland was liberated in 1945, did we tell the Dutch how to treat the 'collaborators'? Nope.  We stood by as they had their heads shaven - and worse.  Their business, not ours

How soon we forget.

 
FastEddy said:
Like I said else where, I had a 2000 word rant written but decide just to say


                                                      "SO WHAT"

Uhhh.... Eddy - what were you planning to rant about?

This article was relatively well balanced and was quite clear that the low end taliban that are incarcerated in Afghan prisons ARE as well treated as the remainder of the prison population - that their jailers are not monsters AND that there is no widespread individual or institutionalized abuse as has been suggested by the doogooders over here.

- Were ya itchin to give me a speeding ticket or something?

Chimo!
 
geo said:
Uhhh.... Eddy - what were you planning to rant about?

This article was relatively well balanced and was quite clear that the low end taliban that are incarcerated in Afghan prisons ARE as well treated as the remainder of the prison population - that their jailers are not monsters AND that there is no widespread individual or institutionalized abuse as has been suggested by the doogooders over here.

- Were ya itchin to give me a speeding ticket or something?

Chimo!


If there was Abuse, its their Prison, its their Nationals, its their Country, its their Law & Order, I'd still say "SO WHAT". As far as the Horrific Conditions of their Prisons, again "SO WHAT".

In passing, if we are there to rebuild their County, that last things I'd be concerned about is their Prison and Criminals. (other than they are being caught and theres a place to put them).

I also understand the findings get the CF's and us off the hook. But we should have never been accused in the first place.

Cheers.
 
In our Soldiers efforts to ensure the prisons are of sanitary conditions, etc. Doesn't that tell us they are working hard to stabilize the country in ALL aspects? At least that is what it says to me as I read along here. It speaks volumes, as to the wonderful job that our Soldiers are doing.

~Rebecca
 
proudnurse said:
In our Soldiers efforts to ensure the prisons are of sanitary conditions, etc. Doesn't that tell us they are working hard to stabilize the country in ALL aspects? At least that is what it says to me as I read along here. It speaks volumes, as to the wonderful job that our Soldiers are doing.

~Rebecca


Unless I read the article wrong, its two Correction Specialist types that did the inspections and will make or try to Westernize their Prisons. (ON OUR TAX DOLLAR)

Of course our Troops are doing a fine job and what they are trained for. In addition they are Good Will Ambassadors. But they are not responsible for Foreign Policy or the revaping of Afghanistan's Penal System

You can care or bleed to your Hearts content about their Prison Conditions.

But the Launchers of RPG's, IED's, Motoars at our Troops. I couldn't care a Sweet .... about their Sanitary conditions or if they have stand up to their knees in S..t.
 
Eddy,

I'm sitting here doing my best to put my thoughts into words when I write this. When it comes to IED's, RPG's, etc..... it makes my heart break every time when I hear of another Soldier being wounded or killed by cowardly acts of Terror, because that is what those attacks are.

On another note, our Troops are in my thoughts and prayers as they are working hard over there, helping the people of Afghanistan, and working hard to stabilize the country in ALL aspects.

Cheers, Rebecca

 
proudnurse said:
Eddy,

I'm sitting here doing my best to put my thoughts into words when I write this. When it comes to IED's, RPG's, etc..... it makes my heart break every time when I hear of another Soldier being wounded or killed by cowardly acts of Terror, because that is what those attacks are.

On another note, our Troops are in my thoughts and prayers as they are working hard over there, helping the people of Afghanistan, and working hard to stabilize the country in ALL aspects.

Cheers, Rebecca


I'm sure those are all of our sentiments.

But we were talking about Prison Reform and Conditions which probally touched the hearts of many of the DO GOODERS.

Just as a point of interest, IMO, the Article harps on the Harmony and coexistence among the Prisoners, well its just those extrem conditions and circumstances that has given them a common bond and they certainly don't want to make things any harder or worse than they are.

Cheers,
 
Ottawa silent as time runs out for response on detainees
Decision not to counter rights challenge may signal intent to make Charter argument
PAUL KORING From Thursday's Globe and Mail
Article Link

The government has allowed a court deadline to pass without challenging claims by human-rights groups that its policy of turning detainees over to Afghan security forces exposes them to torture in violation of Canada's obligations under international law and the Charter of Rights.

Amnesty International and the B.C. Civil Liberties Association filed an application in Federal Court in Ottawa this year seeking judicial review of the military's controversial policy. The 30-day period for a government response ran out Tuesday.

The two groups are now in a position to ask a federal judge to order an end to all detainee transfers. "We could apply for an injunction," Jason Gratl, BCCLA's president, said yesterday. "We haven't decided," he said, adding that he hoped Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor would act.

"A voluntary cessation of transfers is the appropriate ethical and moral thing for the government to do," Mr. Gratl said in a telephone interview. "We shouldn't have to force them."

Mr. Gratl said he still hoped the explanation for the government's decision not to file counterarguments in court was that "having nothing positive it can say," it has decided to "announce a solution rather than a defence."

But there was no hint that the government was about to comply with demands from Amnesty and the BCCLA that the Canadian Forces build a prisoner-of-war camp in Afghanistan to hold battlefield detainees rather than turn them over to Afghan secret police, who have a notorious reputation for torture and extrajudicial killings.

Both the Justice Department and the Department of National Defence declined to explain why they allowed the 30-day period to expire without making any response.
More on link

Not sure whether this is going down the course the government wants, or it is something that is going to turn around and bite their tail, but this has huge implications regarding detainees....
 
If you were to even remotely scan a Globe and Mail newspaper this week, you will have seen screaming headlines about the treatment of Afghans prsioners in thier jail system. CTV news is giving lots of coverage to he issue as well.

I believe that this issue, along with our casualties will become the hammer that beats down the present government. Hence it is becoming a strategic issue in Canadian politics, our foriegn policy and how we are going to be able to conduct business overseas.

read for yourself, I provide the general newspaper and network links:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/

http://www.ctv.ca/



 
Hold the phone and just one rock picking minute here. I saw nothing here to say that the particular prisoners were even Taliban fighters captured by Canadian troops! It seems this particular prison has everyday Afghan accused arrested by there own police! what in the hell are the NDP and the Libs talking about! And how is this the Canadian governments fault! Afghanistan's justice system is dark ages compared to our own, well duh!!! Like that's a shocker!
I really hope that the government has people looking into this media report and points out what a general assumption the opposition is making of this news story.  war crimes the left experts say. More like everyday Justice going back many generations Afghan style. Did the reporter even witness any of these atrocities! No. The way the media has been talking I thought Id see men being kept is rat invested siting only cages. Now the prison did look bad but I think Turkish prisons are worse judging what has been shown in documentaries over the years. As for the primitive water and toilets in the prisons, yes I'm sure they are bad by Canadian standards, but I bet the homes many of the Afghan population live in would appear that way to.
 
For those who doubt that torture is taking place.


What Ottawa doesn't want you to know

Government was told detainees faced 'extra judicial executions, disappearances, torture and detention without trial'

http://tinyurl.com/32ujg6

Globe & Mail

By PAUL KORING 

Wednesday, April 25, 2007 – Page A1



The Harper government knew from its own officials that prisoners held by Afghan security forces faced the possibility of torture, abuse and extrajudicial killing, The Globe and Mail has learned.

But the government has eradicated every single reference to torture and abuse in prison from a heavily blacked-out version of a report prepared by Canadian diplomats in Kabul and released under an access-to-information request.

Initially, Ottawa denied the existence of the report, responding in writing that "no such report on human-rights performance in other countries exists." After complaints to the Access to Information Commissioner, it released a heavily edited version this week.

Among the sentences blacked out by the Foreign Affairs Department in the report's summary is "Extra judicial executions, disappearances, torture and detention without trial are all too common," according to full passages of the report obtained independently by The Globe.

The Foreign Affairs report, titled Afghanistan-2006; Good Governance, Democratic Development and Human Rights, was marked "CEO" for Canadian Eyes Only. It seems to remove any last vestige of doubt that the senior officials and ministers knew that torture and abuse were rife in Afghan jails.

It leaves untouched paragraphs such as those beginning "one positive development" or "there are some bright spots."

But heavy dark blocks obliterate sentences such as "the overall human rights situation in Afghanistan deteriorated in 2006."

It's not clear why such internationally agreed and obvious observations are blacked out of the Canadian report. No national-security issues seem involved, nor are there personal privacy issues, reasons often cited for excising information.

A comparison of the full text -- parts of which were obtained by The Globe -- with the edited version shows a pattern of excising negative findings with positive ones left in.

There was no explanation for blacking out observations such as "military, intelligence and police forces have been accused of involvement in arbitrary arrest, kidnapping extortion, torture and extrajudicial killing."

Although the findings aren't surprising - they echo other, and widely publicized, reports by Louise Arbour, the UN Human Rights Commissioner, the U.S. State Department, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, and various international human-rights groups - the report by Canada's own diplomats seems to undermine the government's claims that it was unaware of the fate likely faced by detainees handed over by Canadian troops to Afghan security forces.

The report raises a red flag for any government bound by the Geneva Conventions and responsible for safeguarding transferred detainees from torture and abuse.

It makes repeated dark references to the reputation and performance of Afghanistan's National Directorate of Security, or intelligence police. Most prisoners captured by Canadian troops are now turned over to the widely feared NDS, which is considered tougher but perhaps less corrupt that the Afghan National Police. "Allegations of torture and arbitrary detention by NDS officials have also been reported," the full text of the report says.

Another portion that is blacked out reads "widespread allegations of corruption and human-rights violations exist with respect to the Afghanistan National Police (ANP) and Ministry of Interior (MOI)."

Little of this is new, none of it is surprising. In March, when the U.S. State Department issued its annual report, it made clear that Afghan prisons, where Canada consigns detainees captured by its troops, were rife with torture, abuse and corruption. The report echoed equally grim assessments issued earlier by the United Nations and Afghanistan's own independent Human Rights Commission.

"Security and factional forces committed extrajudicial killings and torture," the U.S. report said. The most recent report by Ms. Arbour found: "The NSD, responsible for both civil and military intelligence, operates in relative secrecy without adequate judicial oversight and there have been reports of prolonged detention without trial, extortion, torture, and systematic due process violations."

The Globe first asked Foreign Affairs on March 7 if Canadian diplomats compiled and wrote similar reports on Afghan human-rights conditions. "No" was the answer.

On March 22, in response to an Access to Information Act request, Jeff Esau, a journalist and researcher working for The Globe, received the following response to his request for the report:

"Please be advised that Canada does not produce an annual human rights report analogous to the reports produced by, for example, the United States or the United Kingdom. Therefore no such report on human rights performance in other countries exists," wrote Jocelyne Sabourin, Director of the Access to Information division at Foreign Affairs.

An earlier access request, filed Jan. 29 by Amir Attaran, a University of Ottawa law professor, asked specifically for the human-rights report on Afghanistan and noted that Foreign Affairs had, in the past, made such reports available to non-governmental organizations.

It also noted that the report on Syria had been referenced in the report on the Maher Arar case.

It was only after the 30-day deadline for a response had long passed and Mr. Attaran complained to Information Commissioner Dan Dupuis, that the edited version was delivered this week, eradicating all reporting of torture and abuse beneath the censor's black pen.







 
Applying the standards of detention provided to Canadians and others (who do crimes in Canada) does not make sense.

The Afghans have a prison system.  They have a code of conduct (of sorts) and treat their prisonners accordingly.  The jails might be a throwback to what we think of as the dark ages BUT, to provide north american correctional accomodations to the TB prisonners would be giving them a standard of living that is higher than what is experienced by the general afghan population.... and THAT really does not make any sense (does it?)
 
..and actually several different human-rights groups[most notably AI] accuse Canada of torture in its prison system.

Perception, perception, perception........
 
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