AESOp ( MOC 081)

[Sub_Guy]

How about a common sense eye.

Blow up Winnipeg and move everything to ZX.    Or not fly them in Winnipeg at all.  Ensuring people are sent to the MOAT/OTU in a timely manner.

Everyone seems to be running in 3 different directions.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I do focus on the LRP needs/wants;  we still need a while to get back to what I'd consider healthy (line crews 100% properly manned, Stds and Trg doing only that, with the right number of B cats staggered in their OJTP that the crews have the Leads and A Cats they need to fly and replacements always a Quarterly or two away from upgrading).  But...overall I have this opinion...which takes into consideration both communities.

I'm still not a 100% fan of the somewhat large amount of 'common to all' training;  I'd prefer to see the trade identify trainees for what platform they're going to initially, and what 'side' (dry/wet) if they are going LRP, and train them to that job...

If it were up to me, I'd probably close down the trg in Wpg, and download the initial occ training to 404 or 406 and then that would streamline the whole thing, and people could take the family with them on their posting.  Cost moves would be limited to the folks posted to the West Coast once they got their category.

This to me would the ideal way to move to. 

But...then there is the key word the follows in yellow...

However, based on reality, I think the PCT is upping the game from the TMTs we did when I went thru.  Always better to take steps ahead then steps back.  I'm sure the 402 guys are going to be busy now implementing the training after being busy getting everything in place.

402 is doing the job now as it is structured and likely to stay structured, but I think the entire shop in Wpg could close up for the AES Op trg, free all that up to pump out ACSOs, and move the fin code, instr's, QS and TPs to CO 404 and 406.  Flying would be done on the PCT/OMS/MH equiv (not sure what the Box is called down that way now) and then the Cyclone or '140. 

Key would be to select the trainees for their 'stream' and then put them into the sausage machine.  After 1 year or so...out pops a B Cat/Cat 2 operator. 

But, yah I think you guys are handling your mandate well and more of the QS is being accomplished now. 

 

[Sub_Guy]

Still though, they are flying in Winnipeg and operating different sensors than the PCT. 

There are plans to add EO, but I feel the money spent on that could be better spent elsewhere.  EO is an extremely simple sensor and doesn’t require much training.  I know the dry team loves their trivia and they then to over complicate everything.  EO = moving a camera with a stick..    I highly doubt the RCMP pounds their guys with a plethora of ridiculous questions when training on EO.

The LRP fleet is hurting for folks and I feel the mandate to keep 402 manned is part of the problem.  404 has TWO ASO instructors!  We are supposed to have 7.  One MOAT requires 2 instructors, but we also fly staff missions and support international taskings.  Professional development?  What the fuck is that?  We are years from this being fixed, I’d say 5 years at the least.

Right now the AES Op trade (LRP) is relying heavily on those who can.  As for those who can’t?  Don’t worry you’ll land yourself a nice high profile non-flying job, where you’ll get to sit on the sidelines and watch people burn themselves out.

I don’t know how anyone can look at the situation and not start sweating.  Either people are dumb as fuck or someone is masking the issue. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Still though, they are flying in Winnipeg and operating different sensors than the PCT.

I know and it doesn't make sense to me, but...that's not my circus and I'm not the ringleader.  ;D

There are plans to add EO, but I feel the money spent on that could be better spent elsewhere.  EO is an extremely simple sensor and doesn’t require much training.  I know the dry team loves their trivia and they then to over complicate everything.  EO = moving a camera with a stick..

I don't ask random Q & A, I do focus on the 'what does this switch do' and 'anything that indicates knowledge of how to use/optimize'.  If someone asked me 'what is the FOV on EON at 1900...I would say "don't know, who cares".  I have important stuff I need to remember.  "when is XLP better than NIR"...valid question IMO.  Most people go to AUTO when we're running in for the stern from XX miles away and then get all f&&ked up fighting it up close when they go abeam at 3 miles...when they don't know why, I know they don't really understand how the sensor works. 

EO is simple, really, if the op can do the following: 

- determine best primary, dial that sucker in  ( I see people picking the incorrect primary a lot)

- 'stack' and focus the (in our case) 3 cameras properly  (again a struggle for lots of people, if they even think of it)

and this is the part new NASOs and (IMO) most ASOs suck at:

- keep the target in the FOV, switch the primary at the right time AND at the same time...talk effectively about what you're seeing on the pri and 2 secondary cameras, while continuously dialing it in.  (the new NASO Bs and even some of the ASO B who did IMPACT...still struggle with this part).

So, what we (or me, at least) find is the ASOs that come over are weak 3s on EO (and Ord).  And it is hard to get them the consistency doing either for them to really be at that "min supervision" level. 

EO is a simple sensor, but a lot of people aren't that great on it and it is Pri sensor more than people realize I think.  You'd be surprised how many line type ASO Bs can't work EO unsupervised on a Group 3 during a photo rig/ID when they're sitting beside me...and new NASOs too.  Anyone can do *a la* IMPACT (well...ok most people could...) but the down low stuff, not so much IMO.  A recent COREX with a Ph2 ASO proved all of what I'm saying.

I have an EO/IR SOP I make the folks who are with me for any length of time use, and once they start sticking to that, all of the issues above go away and the sensor is used effectively.  But, IMO, I would rather have ASOs that are good at the wet stuff;  I think PL3 is good enough for all things EO and Ord for wetties.  :2c: 

The LRP fleet is hurting for folks and I feel the mandate to keep 402 manned is part of the problem.  404 has TWO ASO instructors!  We are supposed to have 7.  One MOAT requires 2 instructors, but we also fly staff missions and support international taskings.  Professional development?  What the fuck is that?  We are years from this being fixed, I’d say 5 years at the least.

And that is why I think the initial occ trg should move to 404 and 406...fuck this 'common to all, everyone does ESM and MVASP' stuff.  I did oceanography on my 3s.  Ask me an oceanography question now.  Point - unless they are going dry, there's no value to knowing RADAR theory or what emitters are on a Udaloy.  Going MH?  No requirement for MAD, but requirement for oceanography.  I don't believe a 'common to all' 3s course is the way to go covering all this stuff.  No offense to EEV and the 402 folks, but I think their course should be cut and a QS for BAQC LRP and BAQC MH be written.  We are wasting time and money on stuff that could be done better.  Gonzo flying;  leave the tails and YFR for the ACSOs.

Right now the AES Op trade (LRP) is relying heavily on those who can.  As for those who can’t?  Don’t worry you’ll land yourself a nice high profile non-flying job, where you’ll get to sit on the sidelines and watch people burn themselves out.

I don’t know how anyone can look at the situation and not start sweating.  Either people are dumb as fuck or someone is masking the issue.

Yup there are days a T Cat sure sound great!  ;D  I'm home on a Sunday...not enjoying my Sunday afternoon, I'm playing catch-up on Obs Reports, Quarterlies from the second half of 2017 and finishing off the admin on a OTJP Ph4 type before the "feb trip" goes because it is his check.  Funny, because I said over Xmas Leave I wasn't 'working outside work hours this year'.  rly: MH - I think you'll see the same thing with the west coast guys, guess on my part but they're the ones holding the pants up on their own now AFIAK while the east coast gets spun up on all things 148.  My little bubble has gotten better the past few months, but APS will take some of that away. 

IF the BAQC is going to more students, they will again want more guys from the line sqns.  And around the fuckin circle we go again.

Solution?  Shut down BAQC, more the positions/courses to 404 and 406.  Chop up the current QS and TP into 2 courses - BAQC (LRP) and BAQC (MH).  Move the PCT and MVASP stuff from Wpg to Shearwater.  Voila.

This will take the SOA and Trade Advisor to sell to 2 CAD and the Comdr, but first there has to be an acceptance that it would be a better, more effective and cost-efficient way to produce B Cat/Cat 2 operators and use 404 and 406 to their max potential.

 

[Sub_Guy]

I realize there is a little more to it than moving the camera with a stick.  However, I do find that many NASOs like to wander into the weeds.

When I hear of ASOs being weak on EO I place the blame on the leads and Sqns (ASO B cats also need to be proactive, a Pte may be intimidated, but a MCpl/Sgt shouldn’t be).  I find that most ASO leads are uncomfortable with EO and Ord duties to begin with, so naturally they will focus their training on MVASP.

There are two courses of action that I feel needs to take place. 

1. The ASOs will most likely find themselves sitting a QSWB in the spring.  I am going to recommend we turf Ord and I also feel that EO should go as well*.

Or;

2. Sqns be proactive and change their way of thinking.  I personally feel that ESM should be sitting at the ASO rail for all missions, except ASW.  This would make sense as we have 5 sensor operators on the aircraft and under our current thought process we have one operator responsible for both EO and ESM.  By my count that leaves 3 sensor operators sitting around licking windows (again except for ASW missions).

*My reason for wanting to offload EO is because it always feels like a fight, we have to fight for EO time.  I also feel that our ASW skillset is also slipping and we need to bring that back up to where it should be.

Another issue we have is that ASO usually ends up with TCDL/BLOS duties (when required), it’s never grab a dry guy and get him to setup TCDL.  TCDL isn’t in our QS and we aren’t trained on the kit, it just fell on our lap because it’s a shitty task and no one else wanted it.  So again we find ourselves taken away from other stuff (like EO work). 

The issue of being weaker in Ord, naturally this makes sense as Ord is usually only busy during ASW missions, during which the ASO should be sitting at MVASP.

I get the manning and the flexibility argument and I am all for being flexible, which is why I am going to recommend that NASOs be trained in basic MVASP functions (which the new grads already are!) so we can utilize them in the wet seat too. 

So to recap I want EO and Ord dropped or MVASP picked up by the dry team (for the added flexibility).

 

[Adventurecalls6]

Good Day, Been a few months since I posted here...

My OT was sent through and I got confirmation it was received. I was told that the board for VOT-T AESOP was last week and that decisions would be sent out by the end of March. Now according to the CANFORGEN on OTs this year it says notifications wont be sent out until May/June.
Just wondering if anyone can shed some light on this for me. Should I be expecting an actual decision on my OT by the end of March? Hate the feeling of waiting for something that wouldn't come for a extra few months then I thought.  :waiting:

Thanks!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

My OT was sent through and I got confirmation it was received. I was told that the board for VOT-T AESOP was last week and that decisions would be sent out by the end of March.

Can I ask where you heard that?  Was it from the PSO shop staff?

Now according to the CANFORGEN on OTs this year it says notifications wont be sent out until May/June.

 

This is a credible source of information...seems like a good starting point to expect to find out.

Just wondering if anyone can shed some light on this for me. Should I be expecting an actual decision on my OT by the end of March? Hate the feeling of waiting for something that wouldn't come for a extra few months then I thought.  :waiting:

Thanks!

Aside from a few people who might be close to the SOA (Senior Occupation Advisor...the BTL Manager, an AES OP CWO), guys like me who live and breath at the line sqn level don't have much eyes on stuff like this.

If you got that info ref March in the first quote above from the PSO shop, I'd call them or drop by and ask them if the CANFORGEN info is accurate or if the March date one is more accurate for the AES Op MOSID.

I've only talked to one OT who got in thru last years competition and I believe that pers got their offer in early June.

Good luck!

 

[Adventurecalls6]

When I contacted DGMC about getting confirmation they received my application the Occupation Transfer Admin Clerk, Director General Military Careers (DGMC) sent me an email back saying:

"The board will be sitting next week and offers will be issued at the end of March."

I thought that would be pretty accurate since it came from the DGMC but it was much different then the CANFORGEN that said:

"SUCCESSFUL APPLICANTS WILL BE NOTIFIED NLT JUN 18. NO REQUEST FOR UPDATE ON ACTIVE FILES WILL BE ENTERTAINED BEFORE MID MAY 18"

So that's why I was wondering.

 

[PuckChaser]

NLT June 218 is after End March 2018... seems like you have a pretty accurate window to get your offer message.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

When I contacted DGMC about getting confirmation they received my application the Occupation Transfer Admin Clerk, Director General Military Careers (DGMC) sent me an email back saying:

"The board will be sitting next week and offers will be issued at the end of March."

I thought that would be pretty accurate since it came from the DGMC but it was much different then the CANFORGEN that said:

"SUCCESSFUL APPLICANTS WILL BE NOTIFIED NLT JUN 18. NO REQUEST FOR UPDATE ON ACTIVE FILES WILL BE ENTERTAINED BEFORE MID MAY 18"

So that's why I was wondering.

Well, then it sounds like the AES Op ones will be starting at end March.  I received my offer in March back when I OTd...maybe the trade gets their's a little earlier because people may still have to finalize their aircrew medical or some other reason.

 

[Adventurecalls6]

Well, then it sounds like the AES Op ones will be starting at end March.  I received my offer in March back when I OTd...maybe the trade gets their's a little earlier because people may still have to finalize their aircrew medical or some other reason.

Fingers crossed. I hate waiting around to hear back. But it would be worth it if I had to.

Thanks!

 

[jdog]

Good Morning,

Please forgive my ignorance, but I would like to know what a "typical" rank progression would look like for an AESOp. Understandably, every situation and person is different, but even a ballpark idea would be helpful. When asking around recruiting I hear the usual "You can go as far as your will can take you" but we all know reality is a little different.

What levels of ranks could a person reasonably look at achieving over their career timeline?

Thank you very much for any help and information.

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

Realistically, I've seen AES Ops achieve the rank of Sgt at 8 years of service. Some achieved WO after 11 years ish.

 

[jdog]

Thank you good sir!

Looking at the pay and rank scale for 2017, I notice there is a significant jump between the private pay increments 1-2-3. Once you get above that, the increments for Corporal become rather small in comparison. This may be the wrong place for my next question, but what would be a rough expected progression for the 3 pay increments at the Private level? (And perhaps the better question, how does a Private fit into the AESOp position? By the end of all the training etc, where would you emerge on that scale? I'm assuming at level 1.)

Thank you again for the information.

 

[dapaterson]

Pay increments are annual, barring colossal feats of stupidity.

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

Pay increments are every year. By the time you’ve completed all your training and show up at the Sqn, you’ll most likely be an Aviator lvl 3. If you put lots of effort and work hard, you could also be advance promoted to Cpl.

 

[jdog]

Thank you very much for the info gentlemen! That answers everything I was looking for. Much appreciated!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Just to add, Cpl is a rank you will get after 48 months of service.  Cpl and QL5 qualified means you get spec pay (Specialist Pay Category 1), if you are flying you get AIRCREW allowance and, if you ended up Maritime helicopter, you'd also be in a PLD Area and if you were on a HelAirDet you'd also get sea duty allowance.  For a Cpl, it is very good pay and benefits.

After Cpl, promotion is competitive;  some people who went thru their training together are progressing fairly differently;  some are Sgt, some are MCpls and some after still Cpl's after a handful of years on Sqn.

If you work hard, fit in well with a crew, don't duck the away trips and standby weekends, etc you'll progress fairly well.  If you don't display much loyalty to the job and your peers...you might find yourself behind the pack.

 

[jdog]

Thank you again for the info!

From what I am told, there are two basic "positions" you can have as an AESOp. You could either be aboard a CP-140 Aurora, or a Seaking. Both positions, while being similar, are vastly different as well. Personally I'm a rotorhead fan, as I've flown both small fixed and rotary aircraft... But I love long haul style work.
I'm totally comfortable hopping into a CP-140 in Quebec today, and being anywhere else in the world for a couple months for work.
Drop everything and go patrol the arctic for a week or two? No problem!

Another curious question that recruiting wasn't able to answer, are there any other positions that AESOps can do? (Again, I primarily see the CP-140 and the Seaking and that's about it).
For stationing, I was told it's either Comox BC, or Greenwood NS. Anyone know of anything in St.Jean for AESOp by some rare chance? (In my back yard).

Thanks again everyone!

 

[Adventurecalls6]

From everything I have been told and found out you mainly work on either the Cyclone (replacing the seaking) or Aurora and now there seems to be a big push for UAV as well. Most postings are in BC and Greenwood or Shearwater NS. Training is mainly done in Winnipeg but probably wont be sent there unless you're instructing.