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AESOp ( MOC 081)

GOF

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Because of the cost of training, and to help with pay one needs rank, so unless they promote right after wings, there will be some hard feelings among those who have to put some time in before being promoted to Corporal.  But then again, they could do what they did in WW2 with Sgt pilots, promote to Sgt upon Wings.  Because of what is involved in the training, a person should be promoted to Sgt upon Wings, and make the base rank a Sgt.

Also, by making it a re-muster trade, a person re-mustering has to be recommended for re-muster, the board looks at the members past, and in my humble opinion, they will get a better candidate than someone with no military experience entering a very demanding trade.
 

Zoomie

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MP's are insta-promoted to Corporal after basic training.  Why not for FE, AESOP, SARTech, etc.  The working rank for all of these trades is Cpl, insta-promotions to anything higher will never "fly".
 
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aesop081

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Zoomie said:
MP's are insta-promoted to Corporal after basic training.  Why not for FE, AESOP, SARTech, etc.  The working rank for all of these trades is Cpl, insta-promotions to anything higher will never "fly".

My trade is "insta-promoted " to MCpl 12 months after wings.  In the RAF, their sensor operators are promoted to SGT imidiately after wings and they come straight from Civie street.
 

SeaKingTacco

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The problem with an "insta-promotion" to Sgt is that you are trying to solve a pay problem with rank.  Why not just use spec pay to keep the guy in?

The major problem with the AES Op trade (IMHO) is demographics.  The trade is becoming ancient (age and years of service wise).  Continued reliance on a remusters (who are at already at 8-12 years of service and around 30 before they even set foot in the AES Op classroom) won't solve that problem.  Chasing a smaller and smaller pool of remusters (that is also being chased by JTF 2, FE and SAR Tech)  won't help us.

If the US Navy can recruit 18 year olds and a year later have them functioning as Aircraftsman on Sea Hawks, can we not explore this also?  I can't speak for the LRP guys, but MH is an extremely physically demanding job.  There is alot of physical labour involved in hoisting and potentially rescuing people.  I would like to see some more guys (and gals) in their 20's doing the job.  I'm 38, and I'm starting to feel too old to do some of the work...

Cheers!
 
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aesop081

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SeaKingTacco said:
The problem with an "insta-promotion" to Sgt is that you are trying to solve a pay problem with rank.  Why not just use spec pay to keep the guy in?

The major problem with the AES Op trade (IMHO) is demographics.  The trade is becoming ancient (age and years of service wise).  Continued reliance on a remusters (who are at already at 8-12 years of service and around 30 before they even set foot in the AES Op classroom) won't solve that problem.  Chasing a smaller and smaller pool of remusters (that is also being chased by JTF 2, FE and SAR Tech)  won't help us.

If the US Navy can recruit 18 year olds and a year later have them functioning as Aircraftsman on Sea Hawks, can we not explore this also?  I can't speak for the LRP guys, but MH is an extremely physically demanding job.  There is alot of physical labour involved in hoisting and potentially rescuing people.  I would like to see some more guys (and gals) in their 20's doing the job.  I'm 38, and I'm starting to feel too old to do some of the work...

Cheers!

SKT, i'm sold on the idea of taking raw recruits into the trade.  I dont know about MH but here for us in LRPA its not that physicaly demanding.  More mentaly demanding than anything else.  The direct bonus of taking only remusters is that you usualy get a more mature individual that has been around the military for a while and is less of a discipline/admin problem ( of course there are exceptions) but i'm sure that as a trade we can overcome any issues.
 

x-zipperhead

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Thought I'd wade in here with my 2 cents.  Being an AESOp in the MP/LRP community, like aesop081, I have heard lots of the debates for both sides of the issue ( re-muster vs. direct entry ) and there are pros and cons for both.  I personally lean towards keeping it a remuster trade if at all possible.  The fact is this is a senior NCO generating trade and the working rank is Sgt.  I just don't think you can create a quality NCO in 1 to 2 or even 3 to 4 yrs.  Also, people always bring valuable experience from whatever their previous trade was as well.  That being said I think SeaKing Tacco makes some very good points about the demographics of our re-musters as well as the overall "age " of the trade. I agree that we should be targetting more candidates in their 20's and I think we probably could.  I think that it is a trade off between having enough experience and not being  "over the hill".  We should be targetting people coming off their first or second BE ( i.e. 3-6yrs service ) as opposed to people who are pensionable almost as soon as they join the trade ( 15 -20 yrs ).  I came from the army as did aesop081 and I think he'll agree that if the trade could make themselves more known to the army you'd see a lot more applications.  A travelling recruiting drive similar to what JTF 2 does I have heard has been considered and I think would be a great idea.  I know when I remustered most of the guys didn't know what an AESOp was and then didn't believe me that you could become aircrew right out of any trade.  A little more visibility might be a huge help.

I think at the end of the day something has to be done and sure I don't see any reason why you couldn't take a guy off the street and make him a decent AESOp.  I just think you might get a little more quality control ( i.e. previous performance ) and more well rounded AESOp by keeping it remuster.  Besides that's they way I had to do it! so.... ;D
.
 
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aesop081

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x-zipperhead said:
  I came from the army as did aesop081 and I think he'll agree that if the trade could make themselves more known to the army you'd see a lot more applications.  A travelling recruiting drive similar to what JTF 2 does I have heard has been considered and I think would be a great idea.  I know when I remustered most of the guys didn't know what an AESOp was and then didn't believe me that you could become aircrew right out of any trade.  A little more visibility might be a huge help.

My freind, nice to see you.  I thought i was going to have to fight the navigator union all on my own  ;D

From what i hear this travelling roadshow is underway.  I've been told its happening in Shilo sometime in the next few weeks.  I like your idea of targeting guys earlier in their careers for remuster to AESOp.  Like you said, if they advertised a little bit more, you would get alot of people in the BPSO's office.  I remember when i was at CFANS, the course after ours had a guy on it who already had 20 years in.  Now no offence to this guy, but he should have never been transfered.  I think that FRP didnt do us any favours either.  SKT does make a valid point when  he says it works for the USN, why would it not work for us ?
 

x-zipperhead

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Hey, buddy.  Yeah, I was the second youngest in terms of age and years of service on my course at 29 and 9 years in.  The average was around 13 or 14 years service and about age 33 or 34 . But then again as an AESOp aren't we supposed to be old and crusty?

That's good to hear that they are underway with a recruiting drive.  I think once e few grunts hear about the trade and that we don't have to sleep in holes  ;D  we may see the applications go up.  What's not to love?  We'll just tell everybody they ALL can go to Comox.  Gotta lie a little or else it wouldn't be real recruiting would it?

As far as the USN, I don't know that much about them and how close they are to us but hey, yeah, if it works for them and for the RAF then why not for us.  I personally still lean toward remuster.  I think with a little more advertising we could come up with 15-20 high quality candidates a year.  But then again I don't know much beyond what I see at the annual CM briefing so I could be talking out of my a**.
 
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aesop081

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x-zipperhead said:
But then again as an AESOp aren't we supposed to be old and crusty?

I got that part of my upgrade covered !!

That's good to hear that they are underway with a recruiting drive.  I think once e few grunts hear about the trade and that we don't have to sleep in holes  ;D  we may see the applications go up.  What's not to love?  We'll just tell everybody they ALL can go to Comox.  Gotta lie a little or else it wouldn't be real recruiting would it?

You're just jealous......admit it !!
As far as the USN, I don't know that much about them and how close they are to us but hey, yeah, if it works for them and for the RAF then why not for us.  I personally still lean toward remuster.  I think with a little more advertising we could come up with 15-20 high quality candidates a year.  But then again I don't know much beyond what I see at the annual CM briefing so I could be talking out of my a**.

At least you got a CM breif this year.........i got sent away on a JTFEX in san diego where the gang of four were here !!
 

x-zipperhead

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x-zipperhead said:
.  I think with a little more advertising we could come up with 15-20 high quality candidates a year. 

Not to suggest that the candidates we are getting now are low quality after all I was one a couple yrs ago so I'd be slamming myself..... and you too. ;D
 
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aesop081

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x-zipperhead said:
Just jealous of your ablities and good looks!.......NOT ;D

Like i said...jealous !

Maybe we should do something like the SAR techs are doing.  Hire 2 civies to become aesops and see how it goes ?  Call it a "buy and try"
 

navymich

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The travelling roadshow does seem to be on.  It is in Esquimalt on Wed 29 Mar.  Before I saw the msg on it, I hadn't know about the trade at all, but since then have learned lots.

I guess I fall into the old and crusty crowd with 14+ years in and 33 years old.  But I like the idea of it being a re-muster trade for the fact that everyone starting out has played the game, knows the basic rules and is there (mostly) because they honestly want to be, not because they are a kid fresh out of high school and it sounds "cool".
 

x-zipperhead

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navymich said:
The travelling roadshow does seem to be on.  It is in Esquimalt on Wed 29 Mar.  Before I saw the msg on it, I hadn't know about the trade at all, but since then have learned lots.

I guess I fall into the old and crusty crowd with 14+ years in and 33 years old.  But I like the idea of it being a re-muster trade for the fact that everyone starting out has played the game, knows the basic rules and is there (mostly) because they honestly want to be, not because they are a kid fresh out of high school and it sounds "cool".

Good to hear it's happening.  If you go to it, leave a post and let us know how it went. 

I agree with you about the benifits of it being remuster.  The problem is there just aren't enough applicants.  I'd be interested to hear what the attendance is like and what people's impressions were.

Best of luck to you if you decide you think it is something you want to do.
 

navymich

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I went to the "roadshow" today.  Attendance wasn't too bad I guess, about 10 of us there, mostly LS.  One walked out shortly after it started, and I heard a few others talking saying that they were actually applying for SAR Tech, but it was suggested to them to put AESOP down as a second choice.

It was given by a couple AESOPs from Pat Bay, as well as one from the Recruiting Centre.  Good basic background information was given.  All specific info was about the Sea Kings though, so it would have been nice to have someone with Aurora experience too.

All in all, I learned a bit more to add to what I've got, and am definitely still interested.
 

x-zipperhead

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navymich said:
I went to the "roadshow" today.  Attendance wasn't too bad I guess, about 10 of us there, mostly LS.  One walked out shortly after it started, and I heard a few others talking saying that they were actually applying for SAR Tech, but it was suggested to them to put AESOP down as a second choice.

It was given by a couple AESOPs from Pat Bay, as well as one from the Recruiting Centre.  Good basic background information was given.  All specific info was about the Sea Kings though, so it would have been nice to have someone with Aurora experience too.

All in all, I learned a bit more to add to what I've got, and am definitely still interested.

Glad to hear you got something out of it. 10 doesn't sound like a huge turn out.  Just curious, how was it advertised?
  It would be better I am sure if it was a little more well rounded with info on Aurora, different ground jobs, instructional duties, etc. in addition to Sea King stuff.  It is just a new thing and perhaps it will expand a little bit in the future.
If you have any burning questions about life on an Aurora crew feel free to PM me.
 
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aesop081

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x-zipperhead said:
Glad to hear you got something out of it. 10 doesn't sound like a huge turn out.  Just curious, how was it advertised?
  It would be better I am sure if it was a little more well rounded with info on Aurora, different ground jobs, instructional duties, etc. in addition to Sea King stuff.  It is just a new thing and perhaps it will expand a little bit in the future.
If you have any burning questions about life on an Aurora crew feel free to PM me.

Then she can get a ZX perspective...she's been getting the QQ perspective for some time....hahaha
 

x-zipperhead

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aesop081 said:
Then she can get a ZX perspective...she's been getting the QQ perspective for some time....hahaha

On second thought a ZX perspective might send people running instead of attracting them. Just kidding Greenwood is pretty good!  You know you miss it!
 
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aesop081

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x-zipperhead said:
On second thought a ZX perspective might send people running instead of attracting them. Just kidding Greenwood is pretty good!  You know you miss it!

I'll be there to be reminded of how much i hate it last week of april for OMS
 
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