Advice needed - Best Winter Gloves?

[armyvern]

The Black Combat gloves -- not so good -- I though they were replaced by the Green "Yugoslavian Gardening Glove"  

By the mortar glove and the cadpat combat glove. Kicker is that entitlements to most CTS (Clothe the Soldier) items does not begin until successful completion of QL3/PhIV trg.

Vern

MRM,

In response to an earlier post by you regarding students getting inferior kit. Can we please STOP babying students? Thousands of troops made it through their training and tours in Bosnia etc with that 'inferior" kit and managed to make it through some pretty rough winter exs in Pet with it at -45.

Yes we have gortex now, in limited qtys and high-operational demand, guess who then goes to the bottom of the entitlement pile? Lacking this kit will not cause them to fail, die or be unsuccessful where thousands of soldiers before them have prevailed using that same kit.

Perhaps it's time we all stopped giving the students reasons to excuse their shortcomings, and actually gave them a little credit; as in we passed the same courses with that kit, so can they. We all need to carry on already, they'll live.

 

[KevinB]

MRM,

In response to an earlier post by you regarding students getting inferior kit. Can we please STOP babying students? Thousands of troops made it through their training and tours in Bosnia etc with that 'inferior" kit and managed to make it through some pretty rough winter exs in Pet with it at -45.

Yes we have gortex now, in limited qtys and high-operational demand, guess who then goes to the bottom of the entitlement pile? Lacking this kit will not cause them to fail, die or be unsuccessful where thousands of soldiers before them have prevailed using that same kit.

Perhaps it's time we all stopped giving the students reasons to excuse their shortcomings, and actually gave them a little credit; as in we passed the same courses with that kit, so can they. We all need to carry on already, they'll live.

+1
Great post BTW

I'm all for giving the best kit we can -- but operational needs take priority.

I still think troops in basic and BattleSchool should have stayed in the OD combats to use the stock up ...

 

[mysteriousmind]

As always, The Librarian speaks with wisdom!

 

[17thRecceSgt]

By the mortar glove and the cadpat combat glove. Kicker is that entitlements to most CTS (Clothe the Soldier) items does not begin until successful completion of QL3/PhIV trg.

Vern

MRM,

In response to an earlier post by you regarding students getting inferior kit. Can we please STOP babying students? Thousands of troops made it through their training and tours in Bosnia etc with that 'inferior" kit and managed to make it through some pretty rough winter exs in Pet with it at -45.

Yes we have gortex now, in limited qtys and high-operational demand, guess who then goes to the bottom of the entitlement pile? Lacking this kit will not cause them to fail, die or be unsuccessful where thousands of soldiers before them have prevailed using that same kit.

Perhaps it's time we all stopped giving the students reasons to excuse their shortcomings, and actually gave them a little credit; as in we passed the same courses with that kit, so can they. We all need to carry on already, they'll live.

Well now...I am not saying baby them.  I AM saying...while students are using the older kit, their staff, who is NOT operational, is standing beside them in the gucchi stuff.  Giving people the best kit is not babying them.  Its giving them them the best kit.  What I was looking for was the reason it is not on the SI for trainee's.  I thought maybe you would be able to quote the policy type thing, as opposed to...re-word the meaning of my post to "babying"  ;D.

I see your point, no one will die, but..I never said that.  I am not advocating for excuses for the students.  I am also one of those who used the older kit, and we did what we had to, to make it work the best we could. 

I am saying...if possible, when possible, we should be giving our troops the best we can.  If thats not the case, then lets ship some horses, bedrolls and muskets to all the units and tell them to get on with it. 

Of course operational takes priority.  If you are saying thats the reason we don't have enough to go around, thats what I was looking for.  I know...the Air Force purchased the ICES/ICE kit on mass for all its people, and the army did it "little by little", so maybe its the case of one being smarter than the other?

Let's not start reading things into other(mine for instance ) people's posts here, and then replying as if they are saying things they aren't.  Its Christmas Eve afterall!  ;D

So AV, is the reason they don't have it issued because of a national shortage of CADPAT Gortex kit?  The same for...CWW gloves...Gortex socks...etc?  I am just missing the logic behind the SI they are using up there.  You, as a student, are entitled to...a new CADPAT Bivy bag, but not Gortex socks.  WTF?  I am looking for the method to the madness...and of course, will be looking out for the welfare of my troops.  "Because" is not an answer to me when asking "why can't my troops get Gortex socks but they can get a Bivy bag when they are sleeping in tents".

 

[George Wallace]

Perhaps it's time we all stopped giving the students reasons to excuse their shortcomings, and actually gave them a little credit; as in we passed the same courses with that kit, so can they. We all need to carry on already, they'll live.

That 'inferior' kit has kept people nice and snug and warm in Alert all these past sixty odd years.  It kept us warm on seven day patrols out of Pond Inlet on the north end of Baffin Island in December. 

Young kids today just don't know how to 'rough it' and have been babied too much.

 

[George Wallace]

MRM

The Air Force did not issue ICE to all its people.  Many of them on Cbt Arms Bases are still not entitled to some of the ICE items.  The Air Force did purchase the CADPAT Rain Gear, which all Army and Navy are not entitled to.  It works both ways.

As for the Instructors wearing all the 'Gucchi' kit while instructing (Librarian has pretty much explained why people on Basic haven't got any), in most instances they have pretty much the same kit as the students.  When they leave their Cbt Arms Units, they have to turn in most of their 'Gucchi' kit.  So you have stepped over your bounds there.  What they may have still is what is being slowly issued to all.  That the Training System is last to have it filtered down to should not concern any.  We are talking about people who have not seen it before, and if they fail will never see it.  Once the Operational personnel have their issue, then worry about the others in descending order.......and guess where the Recruit is. 

Enough with the whinning.  It looks bad when it comes from those with some TI.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Its not whining.

How's this sound.  We'll see what kit I get issued when I RFD to the unit in question?  Stepped out of my bounds?  Not so.  I was told this by a Reg Frce instructor, at his house, and seen the kit.  This is a Reg Frce Navy type I might add.  Guess what kit he got issued?  And he didn't get it while posted out West either...so I think my source's of info are pretty good.  I saw it in his basement not 2 weeks ago while I was there.  Maybe I was dreaming?

Whining is not the same as asking questions and looking for reasons.  If someone can logically tell me why I can't, as a student, get Gortex socks but I can get a big-a$$ bivy bag....to sleep in a tent with... :

 

[daftandbarmy]

Most of our new recruits are Gen Y. Here's a good description of what they're like.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2005-11-06-gen-y_x.htm

This will present us 'old farts' with a host of new leadership challenges. Will they settle for second best kit and command and control leadership styles, or will they try us out,  put up with the BS for the minimum amount of time, and then bail on us after we've spent a fortune equipping and training them?

I hear from my contacts in the recruiting world that recruiting is not our problem, it's retention. Many civilian companies are facing the same problem. Who knows? Maybe we should make sure the new people get the best stuff while we 'tough old farts' make do with the 'jean jackets' etc. And wouldn't that be a great example of leadership by example and looking after the least expereinced troops first?

Now there's a paradigm shifter for you....

 

[armyvern]

I am saying...if possible, when possible, we should be giving our troops the best we can.  If thats not the case, then lets ship some horses, bedrolls and muskets to all the units and tell them to get on with it.   

Of course operational takes priority.  If you are saying thats the reason we don't have enough to go around, thats what I was looking for.  I know...the Air Force purchased the ICES/ICE kit on mass for all its people, and the army did it "little by little", so maybe its the case of one being smarter than the other?

Which is exactly what we are doing at this point in time...that's why they get some of the new kit and don't get some of the other. As it becomes available, the restrictions get lifted and it filters down to the students.

Perhaps you may think smarter may come into play regarding the elemnents, but I can think of a couple of major deployed reasons as to why the army it is in short supply at this point in time, and to the same reasons for Army budget having a vastly different priority than the AF currently.

Let's not start reading things into other(mine for instance ) people's posts here, and then replying as if they are saying things they aren't.  Its Christmas Eve afterall!   ;D

Read my post again. It clearly says "we" and not you specificly.

So AV, is the reason they don't have it issued because of a national shortage of CADPAT Gortex kit?  The same for...CWW gloves...Gortex socks...etc?  I am just missing the logic behind the SI they are using up there.  You, as a student, are entitled to...a new CADPAT Bivy bag, but not Gortex socks.  WTF?  I am looking for the method to the madness...and of course, will be looking out for the welfare of my troops.  "Because" is not an answer to me when asking "why can't my troops get Gortex socks but they can get a Bivy bag when they are sleeping in tents".

See my response above. There is also a myriad of threads going regarding the reasons behind specific entitlements and shortfalls. I won't get into them again. Suffice it to say, this information regarding these is also contained in a myriad of national messages that are available. Routine Orders (still a mandatory read by all serving members) is also a very good source of info regarding kit entitlements, shortfalls and ops restrictions, many of these shortfalls/restrictions have been published many times over...but people are still asking the same questions over and over and over again, instead of reading. Sometimes, I just don't know why they even bother to cut AIGs and publish ROs anymore.

 

[armyvern]

Whining is not the same as asking questions and looking for reasons.  If someone can logically tell me why I can't, as a student, get Gortex socks but I can get a big-a$$ bivy bag....to sleep in a tent with... :

Because, as per the AIG message, published here locally in those mandatory Routine Orders, gortex socks are currently ops restricted due to high Op tempo. The same is not applicable to cadpat bivy bags. Explanation enough?

 

[DirtyDog]

For TRAINED troops who know what kit works for them, getting your personal kit in order is fine, and in fact I encourage it.  FOR UNTRAINED NOOBS WHO HAVE TO BE WALKED TO DINNER, PUT TO BED AND WOKEN UP IN THE MORNING, I will NOT trust them with their own kit in the field for one reason: they are stupid and I know better.  Full stop.  They are stupid, they will get frost bite, twisted ankles and other injuries, and when the investigation notes that they were wearing some "nomex stuff I read about on the internet", well, guess what happens.

Read your own sig line: " 'The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier.' Napoleon"

Well, seeing as how I started this thread, let me elaborate from my point of view.

Firstly, although I'm new to the military game, at nearly 30 years of age, I'm not a senseless child.  I've been a farmer my whole life, a hunter/outdoorsman, and for the last nearly 10 years I've been a construction worker/contractor.  The field (in the civilian sense), the outdoors, and harsh conditions are not something new to me by any means and I've always thought I've handled myself well. 

I came here to ask a simple question.  Although I'm familiar with different condtions and which gloves are usually suited for what, I guess I was looking for some uber-milspec tactical kit that I havn't heard of as a mere civy.  And I was only looking for the best suggestions because we were instructed that were allowed our own gloves and I was looking for the best available kit so that I might gain an upper hand out in the field however trivial that may be during training.  Not because I can't function with what they give us or that I'm being a wuss.

Thanks for the advice though......

 

[DirtyDog]

I just finished bmq... we had a good time in some very cold weather, on the last couple of weeks.

We were issued the "mortar" gloves and the big arctic mitts. When you're on patrol, that sorta thing, all you needed was a $1 walmart cotton glove liner inside the mortar gloves to keep you fairly warm. After the first k of a march you don't have to worry about being cold any more.

When you're on base sentry at your FOB (you'll see what I mean) you will be very very cold. Standing still gets you. You'll want to wear the mukluks, the balaclava, the goggles, and the arctic mitts on top of whatever other gloves you have on. We were out when it was -20 or so and snowing and it wasn't too bad with all the gear on. I didn't have the mukluks or the arctic mitts on and so long as I kept moving I was ok.

If you're heading out into week 11 (hoochies etc) you probably won't ever be super cold.. I can't really recall any significant period of time spent sitting still!  ;D
week 12 is the base defense stuff and you'll want to bring all your winter gear (if issued) and that should pretty much suffice.

Basically, if you're worried about the thinner gloves being too cold.. don't be. Whenever you're wearing them you'll be moving enough to stay warm. If you're on base sentry you have time to grab your kit and get warm anyway. Bring everything on the list your COC gives you and anything extra you think you'd like. The water canteen tends to freeze solid so the thermos might be a good idea... anyway that's kinda off topic.  Have fun!

Thanks for the advice.  Pretty much what i had anticipated.

However, I must ask..... if you just finished BMQ, how is it that encountered any "very cold weather"?  I don't recall any weather in the last 2 months that was exceptionally cold in the Montreal area.

 

[vonGarvin]

Well, seeing as how I started this thread, let me elaborate from my point of view.

Firstly, although I'm new to the military game, at nearly 30 years of age, I'm not a senseless child.  I've been a farmer my whole life, a hunter/outdoorsman, and for the last nearly 10 years I've been a construction worker/contractor.  The field (in the civilian sense), the outdoors, and harsh conditions are not something new to me by any means and I've always thought I've handled myself well. 

I came here to ask a simple question.  Although I'm familiar with different condtions and which gloves are usually suited for what, I guess I was looking for some uber-milspec tactical kit that I havn't heard of as a mere civy.  And I was only looking for the best suggestions because we were instructed that were allowed our own gloves and I was looking for the best available kit so that I might gain an upper hand out in the field however trivial that may be during training.  Not because I can't function with what they give us or that I'm being a wuss.

Thanks for the advice though......

Dirty Dog:
I didn't have you in mind when I posted above.  Now, in some cases, there will indeed be those recruits who, irrespective of age, have experience in proper kit to be worn in inclement weather.  Having said that, one purpose of Recruit training is to instill uniformity and discipline unlike anything anyone has seen.  Now you personally may know what is good and what isn't, but you must acknowledge that all recruits must be treated equally.

 

[TN2IC]

Don't forget; lightweight synthetics melt easily, take that into account when handling things like kit stoves & vehicles.  

Rifles too... 

I know I am a late Bloomer here. But I would like to say...I used the Arctic mittens while in the field and I would have my OD liners inside of them. So when it came time to fire a round....ta da! Once done...back in they go! Just my two cents... like mine count any ways... 


Cheers,
TN2IC

 

[NL_engineer]

Sigh -- I'm a huge kit slut...

Who ever would have guessed ;D

To the original poster, Wal-Mart sells neoprene gloves for around $20.00.  I used to use them (destroyed them on an ex), and I know a number of people that swear by them. 

For the price, if they get destroyed, or you hate them, there is no great loss to your bank account.

just my two cents

 

[DirtyDog]

Dirty Dog:
I didn't have you in mind when I posted above.  Now, in some cases, there will indeed be those recruits who, irrespective of age, have experience in proper kit to be worn in inclement weather.  Having said that, one purpose of Recruit training is to instill uniformity and discipline unlike anything anyone has seen.  Now you personally may know what is good and what isn't, but you must acknowledge that all recruits must be treated equally.

Yes, quite true.  Teamwork, discipline, and uniformity are 3 big ones that come to mind when thinking of BMQ.

I didn't mean to take your post so personally, but I guess the Christmas leave has gave me too much time to think and sometimes resent being lumped in with some of the other recruits (as I should be in some cases), young and old alike, who really are quite naive and clueless, look for an easy way out, and are whining constantly.  Not that I am the pefect recruit by any means.

 

[lostrover]

As some have previously mentioned, the issued kit (especially today) is amazing.  I as thousand of others survied wearing issused kit for many years, did I get cold......yes............did I get wet.....yes.  With all the fancy high-tech gear today...does one still get wet...yes.........stil cold...yes!  First piece of privately purchsed kit.....and American rain jacket, a few years later a pair of goretex socks, and a bivy bag, apart from that thats pretty much all I bought (but of course spent many years developing my brew kit).  The kit we have regardless of age does its job, yes it can be supplemented in some instances.  Take the time to use and learn about the kit you are issued, for one day in theatre your "gucci" kit won't be replaceable and you will have to revert to issue only kit.  How so many of us soldiered without Gore-Tex is astounding (yes I am being very sarcastic).

 

[Franko]

Time to dispel some rumours and BS....

Got the lowdown on the gloves and kit issue from my visitor last night....he's an instructor.

What the Librarian said was spot on....go figure coming from a SME.     

There is currently a spike of recruits going through and the supply system can't issue something that they have out of stock.

Recruits are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to stuff like Gortex socks (for the same reasons that AV stated) however, bivvy bags are in stock and they are getting them issued.

The spike is going to continue until the near future and the supply system will catch up. For the recruits going through right now...oh well. Get used to it.

Some of the instructors have said that they would allow conservative looking garments in the field to supplement the equipment that they have been issued.

Also, he advises that recruits that are there or are on the way there soon... keep a grip on their kit because LDR can be submitted, but replacement kit probably wouldn't be issued until they reached their new unit....again, shortages.

Now onto the next bone of contention.....feeding.

The chow lines (mentioned in other threads) it's usually because the recruits are late for timings and hold up their platoons for feeding. One guy late holds everyone up.

There are plenty of cooks and staff ready and able to feed everyone. It's up to the individual to stand in cue and get the grub.

They are allotted ( in the schedules) plenty of time to eat.....period.



Regards

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Which is exactly what we are doing at this point in time...that's why they get some of the new kit and don't get some of the other. As it becomes available, the restrictions get lifted and it filters down to the students.

Perhaps you may think smarter may come into play regarding the elemnents, but I can think of a couple of major deployed reasons as to why the army it is in short supply at this point in time, and to the same reasons for Army budget having a vastly different priority than the AF currently.Read my post again. It clearly says "we" and not you specificly. See my response above. There is also a myriad of threads going regarding the reasons behind specific entitlements and shortfalls. I won't get into them again. Suffice it to say, this information regarding these is also contained in a myriad of national messages that are available. Routine Orders (still a mandatory read by all serving members) is also a very good source of info regarding kit entitlements, shortfalls and ops restrictions, many of these shortfalls/restrictions have been published many times over...but people are still asking the same questions over and over and over again, instead of reading. Sometimes, I just don't know why they even bother to cut AIGs and publish ROs anymore.

Thats what I was looking for...the "reason".  Having been where I was for 4+ years, I never saw anything in ROs about kit.  From a "end-user" perspective, I like the quick and dirty on the reasons, and maybe a "go read Msg X"...and off I would go.  I have asked before, to my former CoC and gotten nodda back.  I found out about the restriction on the thermal underwear when I when to trade a set in...so passage of info in my former unit WRT stuff like this appears to be...ya.

Hopefully, with my change of units, I will be in the loop on all this stuff. (read haul my head out of my arse).  ;D

Oh.  Our "Base Sub-stores" in the Hfx Armouries is staffed mostly by folks from FLog...they are good people but used to the Navy side of the house, and getting info on "army kit" there was 'bout the same as the HQ was  .  Understaffed and lots to do, the same as lots of folks. 

 

[TN2IC]

Oh.  Our "Base Sub-stores" in the Hfx Armouries is staffed mostly by folks from FLog...they are good people but used to the Navy side of the house, and getting info on "army kit" there was 'bout the same as the HQ was   .  Understaffed and lots to do, the same as lots of folks. 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Wait a mintue...FLog? That's moi! ;D