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"A military can only fight well on behalf of a society in which it believes..."

The Bread Guy

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"....and .... a society which believes little is worth fighting for cannot, in the end, field an effective military."

Longish piece from Robert D. Kaplan ("Imperial Grunts"), and posted here because it talks about the US military, but interesting lessons/insights for other forces, too. 

"Some truths are so obvious that to mention them in polite company seems either pointless or rude. What is left unstated, however, can with time be forgotten. Both of these observations apply today to the American way of war. It is obvious that a military can only fight well on behalf of a society in which it believes, and that a society which believes little is worth fighting for cannot, in the end, field an effective military. Obvious as this is, we seem to have forgotten it.

Remembering will help us in several ways. First, it will show us that the greatest asymmetry in our struggle with radical Islam is not one of arms or organization or even of ideology in any simple sense, but one of morale in the deepest sense. Second, it will provide an insight into the state of civil-military relations in our own country, which is a growing problem many of us refuse to acknowledge. And third, it will show us why some kinds of wars—“in-between” wars, I call them—have become inherently difficult for the United States to fight and win ...."

More here (permalink in .pdf format in case the first link disappears or expires).
 
Actually soldiers should not be fighting for society but for their country and everything that they hold dear.
While I dont much care for the political warfare that goes on where one side attempts to undermine the side in power, it is instructive that we work for a democracy with all its warts. People have the right to disagree while we see in Iran,Syria and many other places if you speak out against government policy you end up in jail or worse.
 
tomahawk6 said:
Actually soldiers should not be fighting for society but for their country and everything that they hold dear.
While I dont much care for the political warfare that goes on where one side attempts to undermine the side in power, it is instructive that we work for a democracy with all its warts. People have the right to disagree while we see in Iran,Syria and many other places if you speak out against government policy you end up in jail or worse.

T6,
I think perhaps the original writer of that quote meant society and country as being synonymous in this context, since society can mean the Western way of life and democratic institutions which are shared by many countries.
 
We can argue definitions, but in this case I take society as meaning the society at large or the body politic.  I take it as an all-inclusive term, but with a definable centre of mass (a bunch of Venn Diagrams).  A country considered separate from its people is just a theoretical/legal construct devoid of real meaning. 

A nation's army will probably look like a sub-culture when compared to its parent society with its own distinct values and norms, and I know that this has caused some concern among thinkers.  Is there a danger if a nation's military is radically different from its parent nation in term of values?

One would think that if the soldiers of a nation do not believe in that nation that they will not be very effective, and that a neglected military will not be a very effective one.  Morale, however, is a rather complex beast with a number of factors.  Was the British Army that carved out and policed an empire valued and cherished by British contemporary society?  When they fought, were they fighting for the British Empire or perhaps something else?  I only ask because there may be a difference between an army of citizens raised to defend the homeland and a long-service army deployed in far-flung places.  Do we join for one reason but perhaps fight for another?

 
There are very few countries that are willing to challenge the US in conventional warfare, because we have demonstrated an ability to quickly destroy and adversary in that kind of war. It is critical that we demonstrate a capacity to destroy enemies using insurgency warfare, are we will be dealing with a lot more small wars. On a strategic level that is the most important reason for winning the war in Iraq.

I stumbled across this on a website called Prairie Pundit.  The issue at hand was a Ralph Peters article apparently beating up on the Co-In Field Manual (widely believed to be authored by or with Petraeus).

It seems to fit with this discussion.  The primary article says that Western Democracies/the US are allowed to fight and can win big general mobilization wars (not tested since 1941) and small black ops (debatable given the CIA although FARC has been engaged "covertly" for a while).  At very least western "enemies" are reluctant to take on the US in those arenas.  However, the mid-size Korea/Vietnam/Iraq engagements demonstrate a western vulnerability.  A government has about 18 months to engage the enemy and then withdraw from the headlines.  As Prairie Pundit says the US/we need to get very good, very fast at dealing with an exposed flank otherwise we will be continually drawn into these types of operations.

It seems to be conventional wisdom, judging by the reports that Edward is submitting from his latest symposium,  that there are a whole lot of opportunities for the "enemy", whoever that may be, to engage us in the near future.

If we can't figure this one out and come up with an economical strategy for countering these attacks then we bleed bodies and treasure and credibility.

I DON'T think it is an appropriate response to tuck our collective heads in our collars, block out the world and say "I'm alright Jack".  That will preserve bodies in the short-term (maybe) and treasure for a little longer (until we run out of goods to trade). 

BUT is an extremely fast route to lack of credibility - and then the other side wins.  They want us to be seen to be selfish cowards.

So... how do you set the ground work to defeat an insurgency in 18 months?  It will obviously take longer than that but how do you get it off the front pages in that time so that you can continue with the same level of coverage that UNFICYP or the Kashmir or even 4 CMBG got?

Is there a mechanism/solution that would allow for 12 months of kinetics and then establishment of something like the British South Africa Constabulary in conjunction with tribes/concerned citizens/firqats/kandaks? 

If such a strategy WERE possible (no guarantees) it seems to me that in the prevailing "peaceful" pre-war environment that means an awful lot more useful "political" intelligence from people on the ground.  Much as Edward has been saying Foreign Affairs needs to be more gainfully employed gathering intelligence.  Not Military Intelligence on weapons and such but political intelligence on who's who, who they represent and what they think. 

Also could we get pro-active in mentoring failing states before they fail?  Take the Lessons Learned in Afghanistan and take them to "friendly" governments, or at least those that are amenable to bribery (development aid) and coercion (sanctions).
 
Tango2Bravo said:
A nation's army will probably look like a sub-culture when compared to its parent society with its own distinct values and norms, and I know that this has caused some concern among thinkers.  Is there a danger if a nation's military is radically different from its parent nation in term of values? 

As I had it was said to me one, "the military is a reflection of society as it was 20 years ago".  Even if that's not ture, it is perceived that if you cut off the military from society, then it would diverge into a completely different culture, including ethics morals and social values.  The concept has been explored in many sci-fi books, movies and TV shows (although i cant think of any specific examples off hand)...

 
when you join the us military - you leave society, and your civilian mindset BEHIND.  They spend a lot of time focusing on that in boot camp.

They're both mutually exclusive.

Hence the terms civilian, and service member.

r
 
While Kaplan makes a good point I have to say that Canada seems to be an interesting exception.  For years Canadian society has seemed to be (at least from my point of view) one that believes there is little worth fighting for.  Yet despite this it has fielded a military that while underfunded and undermanned, due to the attitude of Canadian society towards it, has always remained one of the most effective in terms of training, tactics and morale.  Afghanistan has demonstrated this beyond any argument.

This begs the question, how is it that a society with such an apathetic attitude towards the military and its own defence is still able to field a military with such a strong warrior ethos?
 
cameron said:
While Kaplan makes a good point I have to say that Canada seems to be an interesting exception.  For years Canadian society has seemed to be (at least from my point of view) one that believes there is little worth fighting for.  Yet despite this it has fielded a military that while underfunded and undermanned, due to the attitude of Canadian society towards it, has always remained one of the most effective in terms of training, tactics and morale.  Afghanistan has demonstrated this beyond any argument.

This begs the question, how is it that a society with such an apathetic attitude towards the military and its own defence is still able to field a military with such a strong warrior ethos?

I'm gonna assume because the brass that runs the Canadian Army, is made up of top quality people who spend a lot of time ensuring it's competence in design, training and execution.  Ensuring top-notch in everything they do.  Which is why i have a lot of respect for the CF.

Problem in the US military is simple - we 'accept anyone' nowadays.  Lot of people complaining about that.

r
 
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