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A Canadian Rangers reset would help Armed Forces keep pace with a changing North

tomahawk6

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The value that yourRangers is important. Our equivalent are the Eskimo Scouts. They would conduct patrols on snow machine or ski after being dropped off by helicopter. They have been downsized through the years but I remember the stir that a Scout patrol caused when they brought back Russian C ration cartons and cans from a Russian commando visit to a beach on Alaska's west coast.
 

daftandbarmy

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tomahawk6 said:
The value that yourRangers is important. Our equivalent are the Eskimo Scouts. They would conduct patrols on snow machine or ski after being dropped off by helicopter. They have been downsized through the years but I remember the stir that a Scout patrol caused when they brought back Russian C ration cartons and cans from a Russian commando visit to a beach on Alaska's west coast.

Dude... don’t make us start ‘Eskimo’ shaming you now :)
 

YZT580

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I don't know what form of statistics you are looking for, but how about common sense?  For SAR, compare the flight time for an aircraft from any current base to anywhere on the Arctic shore: particularly since our new aircraft can't get there without a refueling stop in some cases and a very limited search time before time out in another.  Use the same search parameters for any community on Hudson Bay.  Hours different from those same bases to anywhere else in Canada.  Those communities are entitled to the same degree of response as is the boater in Lake Huron and they need it more with survival times measured in minutes and hours and the greater possibility of a mishap. 
 

daftandbarmy

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Colin P said:
Also start pumping a lot more money into runways, aviation infrastructure and marine ports and infrastructure. Start connecting northern communities with roads, even if the roads don't yet connect with the south.

This. Lots of it  :nod:
 

Good2Golf

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YZT580 said:
I don't know what form of statistics you are looking for, but how about common sense?  For SAR, compare the flight time for an aircraft from any current base to anywhere on the Arctic shore: particularly since our new aircraft can't get there without a refueling stop in some cases and a very limited search time before time out in another. 

Does not SAR have performance expectations associated with statistics that for example X% of SAR requests must be addressed within a specific response time?

If not, then what kind of response do you believe ‘common sense’ dictate?

So, how many additional bases and where, do you advocate we need with your proposed refurbished Buffalo’s speed and endurance?

YZT580 said:
Use the same search parameters for any community on Hudson Bay.  Hours different from those same bases to anywhere else in Canada.  Those communities are entitled to the same degree of response as is the boater in Lake Huron and they need it more with survival times measured in minutes and hours and the greater possibility of a mishap.

What is the longest acceptable time to respond to a SAR request in the North?  30 minutes over top?  And furthermore, do you propose that Canada need increase only its aeronautical incident response capability, ie. that which Canada’s National Search and Rescue Program mandates the CAF to provide?  Should not the GoC also increase maritime and ground SAR assets?

Regards
G2G
 

lenaitch

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YZT580 said:
. . . Those communities are entitled to the same degree of response as is the boater in Lake Huron . . . 

I'm not sure that would be a great benchmark.  I think that the first aviation asset and possibly even the maritime asset to a SAR incident on Lake Huron would come from the USCG.
 

YZT580

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G2G, your points are valid and require addressing as well.With respect airborne SAR having bases in the north equipped with hercs or the airbus for the task to ensure over the top within the same time frame as a ship in trouble within the Gulf of St. Lawrence or perhaps Fort Nelson BC for a downed aircraft would be the ideal.  It isn't going to happen as the requirements for a/c would probably double.  Equipping and training the rangers and distributing the aircraft across the north would at least help to fill the gap.  Dedicated aquatic assets whether military, coast guard, or attached to a settlement would be of at least equal value and probably easier to sell to the tax payer.  Expanding the rangers to ensure the availability of qualified personnel seems a logical solution. 
 

materialpigeonfibre

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Dimsum said:
If you're talking about ones that can patrol the Arctic, you're probably talking about ones that need satellite comms.  That costs $, plus the fact that right now, satellite comms at the bandwidth you need in the Arctic is limited right now.

If I was to slap something together on a budget and I wanted to avoid sat comms I would:

Have it fly a pre-programmed path (hard to get hijacked if it doesn't listen to anybody anyways). Record, and return for review / high bandwidth transfer at another location (COTS hardware already exists). Slap a spot tracker on it in case it crashes.
or
Have two drones. One to hover at 10,000feet (200Km line of sight from a base station). The station keeping drone can relay information back and forth from base to the drone doing the mission.

Have them send back telemetry encrypted UHF and/or HF.

Recommended reading:
Drone Warfare: Killing by Remote Control by Medea Benjamin
Predator: The Secret Origins of the Drone Revolution by Richard Whittle
pm me if you would like a copy of the book

Getting a little off topic  ;D

 

Good2Golf

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materialpigeonfibre said:
If I was to slap something together on a budget and I wanted to avoid sat comms I would:

Have it fly a pre-programmed path (hard to get hijacked if it doesn't listen to anybody anyways). Record, and return for review / high bandwidth transfer at another location (COTS hardware already exists). Slap a spot tracker on it in case it crashes.
or
Have two drones. One to hover at 10,000feet (200Km line of sight from a base station). The station keeping drone can relay information back and forth from base to the drone doing the mission.

Have them send back telemetry encrypted UHF and/or HF.

Recommended reading:
Drone Warfare: Killing by Remote Control by Medea Benjamin
Predator: The Secret Origins of the Drone Revolution by Richard Whittle
pm me if you would like a copy of the book

Getting a little off topic  ;D

:nod:

HF comms are not well understood by most, and are significantly under appreciated.
 

Edward Campbell

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Dimsum said:
If you're talking about ones that can patrol the Arctic, you're probably talking about ones that need satellite comms.  That costs $, plus the fact that right now, satellite comms at the bandwidth you need in the Arctic is limited right now.

And, depending on how far North you want the UAVs to go and how low you want them to fly you may need satellites in non-geostationary orbit which means you need more of them ... but it is a great way to go for a lot of Arctic operations, military and civilian. It is easy to 'partition' satellite-based systems, channel-by-channel, µsecond by µsecond to keep secure military signals separate from insecure civilian ones i.e. it doesn't have to be a military or even a government system. A 'carrier' like Telesat, could, if it could make a profit, operate a constellation of low-earth-orbit or highly-elliptical-orbit satellites that would cover ALL, every square cm of Canada, 24/7 ...if it could make a profit.
 

daftandbarmy

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Good2Golf said:
:nod:

HF comms are not well understood by most, and are significantly under appreciated.

What’s the HAM radio network like up north? I recall chatting with various folks from around the world on our Clansman 320 HF set, in our Coy CP, in Arctic Norway many years ago.

HAM operators might be able to fill in some gaps in the surveillance web.
 

Edward Campbell

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ALL radio propagation is more complex in polar regions because of the aurora effects ~ lots of good reading in your local university library and on Google if you're so inclined. LF and HF (below about 10 MHz) work well through what is often called the "do-nut" ~ in fact, the Army ran a Low-Frequency link from Alert to the South using a dual diversity ring-radiator antenna system for years. The problem with both LF and HF is very low bandwidth < 3kHz. You can operate a low speed (<100 words per minute) telegraph (data) channel on HF if you have good, stable links and if (Big IF) the propagation gods are smiling. LF can carry only hand-speed Morse code.

Microwave (1.9 ~ 2.1 GHz) works well in the North as the High Arctic Data Communication Systems (HADCS) demonstrates.
 

materialpigeonfibre

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E.R. Campbell said:
And, depending on how far North you want the UAVs to go and how low you want them to fly you may need satellites in non-geostationary orbit which means you need more of them ... but it is a great way to go for a lot of Arctic operations, military and civilian. It is easy to 'partition' satellite-based systems, channel-by-channel, µsecond by µsecond to keep secure military signals separate from insecure civilian ones i.e. it doesn't have to be a military or even a government system. A 'carrier' like Telesat, could, if it could make a profit, operate a constellation of low-earth-orbit or highly-elliptical-orbit satellites that would cover ALL, every square cm of Canada, 24/7 ...if it could make a profit.

You mean this one? :)
https://www.telesat.com/leo-satellites/

Edit:
Sure it would be great to operate via satellite. I think it should be part of the Primary Alternate Contingency Emergency.

I see mesh-networking to get to a gateway as a supplement to the PACE.
See:
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/indago-vtol-uav.html
"MANET MESH network capable"

 

lenaitch

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Between all the Low Earth Orbit satellites coming on line, higher orbiting ones, geostationary ones and just plain space junk, terrestrial astronomy is quickly becoming a thing of the past.

 

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cyber_lass

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materialpigeonfibre said:
You mean this one? :)
https://www.telesat.com/leo-satellites/

Edit:
Sure it would be great to operate via satellite. I think it should be part of the Primary Alternate Contingency Emergency.

I see mesh-networking to get to a gateway as a supplement to the PACE.
See:
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/indago-vtol-uav.html
"MANET MESH network capable"

I am a bit late to the conversation. MESH typologies are great for many cases, but their signals do eventually degrade after subsequent hops (+-9, in the last research I read). You have one huge advantage in the high north, very little ground cover.  Ground cover, Something systems I have worked on/built have had issues with. And the arctic is huge. So you could to a series of gateways that gather and send with a more robust mode of transport, like satellite... Towers need maintenance and are susceptible to tamper and environment. Radios are becoming better though and multiple (double digits) kms ranges are becoming more realistic and robust.
 

Colin Parkinson

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Dutch adding to their winter warfare gear with armed sleds

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/38220/dutch-marines-prepare-for-arctic-warfare-with-new-machine-gun-armed-sleds?fbclid=IwAR3lXB6yQKOZ5ujaFsd2SkPFgNWEBs-F6L6VriamFU8ubgWJdMQkYK2ZUWk
 

daftandbarmy

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Colin P said:
Dutch adding to their winter warfare gear with armed sleds

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/38220/dutch-marines-prepare-for-arctic-warfare-with-new-machine-gun-armed-sleds?fbclid=IwAR3lXB6yQKOZ5ujaFsd2SkPFgNWEBs-F6L6VriamFU8ubgWJdMQkYK2ZUWk

We were using pulks like that in the 1980s. So did the Dutch Marines AFAIK.

I wonder how this is net new? It might be because it seems to be part of a 'system' of man hauled pulks...
 

FJAG

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daftandbarmy said:
We were using pulks like that in the 1980s. So did the Dutch Marines AFAIK.

I wonder how this is net new? It might be because it seems to be part of a 'system' of man hauled pulks...

I seem to recall winter exercises with the RCR in Petawawa back in the 70s and am pretty sure that they had their GPMGs strapped into toboggans.

And just to show how old the idea goes back, here's a WW2 adaptor for the older 30 Cal.

19760332-091.jpg


https://www.warmuseum.ca/collections/artifact/1044178/

:cheers:
 

daftandbarmy

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FJAG said:
I seem to recall winter exercises with the RCR in Petawawa back in the 70s and am pretty sure that they had their GPMGs strapped into toboggans.

And just to show how old the idea goes back, here's a WW2 adaptor for the older 30 Cal.

19760332-091.jpg


https://www.warmuseum.ca/collections/artifact/1044178/

:cheers:

It's a good idea, but the best vehicle for deploying a machine gun, in arctic warfare, is actually a BV 206 or a tank.

Preferably a German tank becasue they built them with Russia in mind, of course :) :)
 

Old Sweat

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daftandbarmy said:
It's a good idea, but the best vehicle for deploying a machine gun, in arctic warfare, is actually a BV 206 or a tank.

Preferably a German tank becasue they built them with Russia in mind, of course :) :)

I kid you not. At the time, mid-60s, when the Germans winter trialed Leos and a number of wheeled vehicles in Shilo, they acknowledged the same.
 
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