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6 Jan 2020 U.S. Events (Split from A Deeply Fractured US)

Colin Parkinson said:
I just read the transcript of Trumps speech, rambling, silly, overblown, but i am not seeing the incitement claimed? https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/...P49FIiRIyUmLHMK2xDPpssPVBtu7kb6Qo_kuUUc4hQSAk
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Seems like the rhetoric on here, (and I have been guilty of it too), is beginning to mirror what has happened in the U.S. where accusation is responded to by even more sensational accusation, claims are rebutted by counter-claims, and each side believes in their own "truths." For the U.S. I am more concerned about "At what point in time does a real leader, from either political stripe, stand up and declare enough is enough!"

Disagreement is the foundation of politics, hyperbole its' main floor. We have seen numerous examples of where either unchecked or deliberate polarization leads, and have seen it once before in the U.S. I shudder to think of the ramifications if it were to happen again, not just for the U.S., where it would be disastrous, but globally, where it would be catastrophic.
 
Colin Parkinson said:
Many of these people are the American victims of globalization. They were unemployed or underemployed and did not see a future for themselves or their kids. They also contributed manpower greatly to the various wars that the US has been involved in, plus they see everything from their freedom of speech, freedom of religion and other rights being eroded. I know quite a few Americans who have told me that the Obama years just about destroyed their businesses and they have seen a noticeable effect in their economy and hope to have enough money to survive Biden tenure.
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That's not politically driven; that's a combination of free market capitalism driving for the highest 'shareholder value' and increasing automation. That will continue regardless of political party, and don't think any of that would really be any different if it had been a republican president instead of Obama.

While Trump may have had some short term job increases propping up dying industries like coal or otherwise rolling back environmental protections to allow cheaper resource extraction, none of that is going to create a real future for themselves or their kids. Especially if you continue to poison the waterways, air and land. Also the tarriffs around things like steel, aluminum and other intermediate goods only increased prices of American made goods and made them less competitive globally, so it was pretty stupid. That happened concurrently with massive tax cut for the rich and big businesses, which they've proven never trickle down. Those are the same people that were also enriched from the various wars and subsequent raiding of natural resources, or handouts from massive government contracts; they are doing a pretty good job at being kleptocracy and mortgaging those people's grandkids futures though.

When Wall street and big banks get massive bailouts, but folks lose their homes it's not really a stretch to see who the politicians really are working for, and it's not generally the people, especially given how much they spend just to get elected and stay in office. It can get kind of greasy in Canada, but imagine if they would spend 100 times the amount on every local election. It's crazy, and the whole political donation circuit, PAC/superPAC influence has really just bought and sold their democracy.
 
Navy_Pete said:
That's not politically driven; that's a combination of free market capitalism driving for the highest 'shareholder value' and increasing automation. That will continue regardless of political party, and don't think any of that would really be any different if it had been a republican president instead of Obama.

While Trump may have had some short term job increases propping up dying industries like coal or otherwise rolling back environmental protections to allow cheaper resource extraction, none of that is going to create a real future for themselves or their kids. Especially if you continue to poison the waterways, air and land. Also the tarriffs around things like steel, aluminum and other intermediate goods only increased prices of American made goods and made them less competitive globally, so it was pretty stupid. That happened concurrently with massive tax cut for the rich and big businesses, which they've proven never trickle down. Those are the same people that were also enriched from the various wars and subsequent raiding of natural resources, or handouts from massive government contracts; they are doing a pretty good job at being kleptocracy and mortgaging those people's grandkids futures though.

When Wall street and big banks get massive bailouts, but folks lose their homes it's not really a stretch to see who the politicians really are working for, and it's not generally the people, especially given how much they spend just to get elected and stay in office. It can get kind of greasy in Canada, but imagine if they would spend 100 times the amount on every local election. It's crazy, and the whole political donation circuit, PAC/superPAC influence has really just bought and sold their democracy.
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America is one of the few economies in the World that could almost totally close it's economy off and sustain itself. It possesses vast natural resources, dominates technologically advanced industries, is an agricultural superpower and has highly favorable demographics in comparison to almost every other Industrialized Country. It's large enough that it could, if it wanted to, form an Autarky of sorts. In fact, I would argue this is the natural American disposition.

I actually think long term, this is the strategy that the US will pursue. It will devalue its currency IOT to reduce its relative debt while also causing a boost in exports and reducing its trade deficit. I do think it will pursue a sort of Mercantilist System with "like minded" Countries where it allows Free Trade "for a price", USMCA being a great example of that.
 
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Humphrey Bogart said:
America is one of the few economies in the World that could almost totally close it's economy off and sustain itself. It possesses vast natural resources, dominates technologically advanced industries, is an agricultural superpower and has highly favorable demographics in comparison to almost every other Industrialized Country. It's large enough that it could, if it wanted to, form an Autarky of sorts. In fact, I would argue this is the natural American disposition.

I actually think long term, this is the strategy that the US will pursue. It will devalue it's currency IOT to reduce its relative debt while also causing a boost in exports and reducing its trade deficit. I do think it will pursue a sort of Mercantilist System with "like minded" Countries where it allows Free Trade "for a price", USMCA being a great example of that.
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Developed economies eschew the efficiencies of comparative advantage at their peril. Could they ‘go it alone’? In absolute terms, yes. But the opportunity cost would be massive. Every unit of labour apportioned to something America does less efficiently than competitors would be taken from something they can do more efficiently. This would cost them in real terms of quality of life.
 
brihard said:
Developed economies eschew the efficiencies of comparative advantage at their peril. Could they ‘go it alone’? In absolute terms, yes. But the opportunity cost would be massive. Every unit of labour apportioned to something America does less efficiently than competitors would be taken from something they can do more efficiently. This would cost them in real terms of quality of life.
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It depends on what the purpose of this exercise would be. Of course, the World is way to interconnected to completely go it alone but there are situations where it makes complete sense to be self-reliant.

COVID-19 PPE + Vaccine Supply and the recent Huawei scandal should have made that abundantly clear.
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
It depends on what the purpose of this exercise would be. Of course, the World is way to interconnected to completely go it alone but there are situations where it makes complete sense to be self-reliant.

COVID-19 PPE + Vaccine Supply and the recent Huawei scandal should have made that abundantly clear.
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Oh, absolutey. There will be economic sectors where strategic considerations would suggest self reliance being a matter of national security. No argument there. That just won’t be most of what we see in the course of our day to day.
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
America is one of the few economies in the World that could almost totally close it's economy off and sustain itself. It possesses vast natural resources, dominates technologically advanced industries, is an agricultural superpower and has highly favorable demographics in comparison to almost every other Industrialized Country. It's large enough that it could, if it wanted to, form an Autarky of sorts. In fact, I would argue this is the natural American disposition.

I actually think long term, this is the strategy that the US will pursue. It will devalue it's currency IOT to reduce its relative debt while also causing a boost in exports and reducing its trade deficit. I do think it will pursue a sort of Mercantilist System with "like minded" Countries where it allows Free Trade "for a price", USMCA being a great example of that.
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Nah, that train has sailed as supply chains are global, and too many key bits are made overseas. Definitely could be done, but would require a degree of nationalisation that they would never get away with politically. Their entire consumer economy is heavily reliant on the import of cheap goods made elsewhere.

Short of a massive increase in the cost of shipping, or a technology singularity like versatile 3D printing that includes things like phones, clothes etc that flips the globalisation cost benefits on its head, I think they are too reliant on Bread and iCircuses for the masses to go through the upheaval to their society with that level of government intervention. It would really have to be actually communist to work, and there is still a group that are too much of rugged individualists to even admit that governments building highways is a good thing.
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
America is one of the few economies in the World that could almost totally close it's economy off and sustain itself. It possesses vast natural resources, dominates technologically advanced industries, is an agricultural superpower and has highly favorable demographics in comparison to almost every other Industrialized Country. It's large enough that it could, if it wanted to, form an Autarky of sorts. In fact, I would argue this is the natural American disposition.

I actually think long term, this is the strategy that the US will pursue. It will devalue it's currency IOT to reduce its relative debt while also causing a boost in exports and reducing its trade deficit. I do think it will pursue a sort of Mercantilist System with "like minded" Countries where it allows Free Trade "for a price", USMCA being a great example of that.
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While I acknowledge you used the word "almost", the two bolded phrases are in opposition. Just off the top of my head, the US produces virtually no bauxite (aluminum) or lithium. US corporation, like all others, do what they feel they can get away with to reduce costs, which typically means off-shore production. Short of some kind of command and control economy, I don't see it happening.
 
I can't guess what specific grievances people have; I can guess that people unemployed or underemployed or mocked for shopping at Walmart might have a gripe. But consider:

"You got into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." - Barack Obama

"There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what ... who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims. ... These are people who pay no income tax. ... and so my job is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives." - Mitt Romney

"You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic – you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people – now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks – they are irredeemable, but thankfully, they are not America." - Hillary Clinton

Whatever else those remarks might be interpreted as, I don't find them to be uplifting or respectful or in any way indicative of a resolve to help people who might feel like they could use a break. And the Democrats have done a good job with identity politics, so even someone personally doing OK can tell when he's being insulted indirectly. So the Democrats have deserted you; the establishment Republicans have deserted you...who's offering something else?

The economic picture for the lowest income quintile was atypically good prior to COVID. An optimally performing economy does not necessarily have to be one in which "winners" and "losers" are evenly distributed, or even one in which the misfortunes fall on people in proportion to their means.
 
Weinie said:
Seems like the rhetoric on here, (and I have been guilty of it too), is beginning to mirror what has happened in the U.S. where accusation is responded to by even more sensational accusation, claims are rebutted by counter-claims, and each side believes in their own "truths." For the U.S. I am more concerned about "At what point in time does a real leader, from either political stripe, stand up and declare enough is enough!"

Disagreement is the foundation of politics, hyperbole its' main floor. We have seen numerous examples of where either unchecked or deliberate polarization leads, and have seen it once before in the U.S. I shudder to think of the ramifications if it were to happen again, not just for the U.S., where it would be disastrous, but globally, where it would be catastrophic.
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And that - “hold on to the constitution” - is exactly what they did in confirming the results of the election, despite a mob out front literally erecting gallows and bellowing “Hang Mile Pence!”, while attacking police in the process of forcing their way into the Capitol. Seeing American flags torn down to be replaced with Trump flags
speaks volumes as to where priorities lied- and it wasn’t in respecting the constitutional processes for selecting the president.
 
Fishbone Jones said:
Because there wasn't any. It's all about telling the lie loud and often. Cheap theatrics.
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You are right, it was probably ANTIFA all along...



Weinie said:
Seems like the rhetoric on here, (and I have been guilty of it too), is beginning to mirror what has happened in the U.S. where accusation is responded to by even more sensational accusation, claims are rebutted by counter-claims, and each side believes in their own "truths." For the U.S. I am more concerned about "At what point in time does a real leader, from either political stripe, stand up and declare enough is enough!"

Disagreement is the foundation of politics, hyperbole its' main floor. We have seen numerous examples of where either unchecked or deliberate polarization leads, and have seen it once before in the U.S. I shudder to think of the ramifications if it were to happen again, not just for the U.S., where it would be disastrous, but globally, where it would be catastrophic.
Click to expand...

Or to build on a great post by Weinie we all have our biases and those that lean one way see it in one light and those that lean another way see it in their light. Great podcast by Hidden Brain released on 4 Jan that really highlights how people can be so radically different in seeing different narratives in this whole debacle and see it easily replicated across many other conversations

Regardless this event has filled me with joy in one sense, in there are so many funny tweets out there!
 

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Society is becoming even more polarized (or we are seeing it more because of social media). Everyone is strongly opionated. But it seems at the save time people have forgotten how to disagree with someone without villianizing them in almost a Shakespeareian way. Being a Conservative I can attest to how aggressively we get attacked by the left to the point that I don't normally talk about politics anymore and I even live in a ridding that has gone significantly blue for as long as I can remember. I wonder if some of these people on the far right were drawn there in part because they felt that they couldn't share their opinion any other way. I believe that the majority of the people who were involved honestly believe d that the election was stolen (which I do not believe myself). Part of the reason for that was their complete lack of trust for the left, because of various reasons. Let's be clear I am extremely upset about what happened south of the border and hope that all responsible go to jail for a very long time. But I think that there are a lot of different things to look at here. I really hope the majority of people can tell the difference between Conservative and Crazy, but I know that some people paint everyone left of centre with the same brush.
 
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