16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military

[Sheep Dog]

The stats are as indicated based upon a street level effort by the city.  I used the ministries numbers as they are accurate and verified.  I am sure we will get stronger more accurate numbers as advocacy gets out to the various organizations to capture veteran data and share it.  No matter how you look at it, there is a problem.

 

[Danjanou]

Intersting the numbers in the link posted above by mariomike to the actual document/study done don't say 16% as noted earlier but 7%

9. Homelessness among Canadian Veterans is evident within Toronto
Street Needs Assessment respondents were asked about military service for the first time in 2013. Seven percent of the overall homeless population indicated that they had some experience in the Canadian Forces. Although data behind this result is limited (respondents were not asked about length or type of service) it is nonetheless an important result of the SNA. There has been little to no research yet conducted to understand the prevalence of homelessness among Veterans in Canada. However, studies in the United States indicate that roughly 7 percent of the country's homeless population are Veterans, while in the United Kingdom it is 6 percent

Now they go on to suggest an estimated 5,253 total homeless, those in the shleter system and those not, based on the count done April 17, 2013. Now 7% of that is 367-368 down from the earlier estimated including the ones I suggested but still way to high.

 

[chyna]

Wh gives a flying f if the stats are over-reported, if they are cold war vets, or not! They are a former serving member down on their luck. Cannot stand how so many of us apply our own biases to issues such as these. If the shoe was on our foot...oh how the tune would change. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Wh gives a flying f if the stats are over-reported, if they are cold war vets, or not! They are a former serving member down on their luck. Cannot stand how so many of us apply our own biases to issues such as these. If the shoe was on our foot...oh how the tune would change. 

It matters if it's over reported because that money can be put to better use serving vets.  Take a look at how little money actually makes it through all of the various 'hands' on the way down......

 

[Danjanou]

Wh gives a flying f if the stats are over-reported, if they are cold war vets, or not! They are a former serving member down on their luck. Cannot stand how so many of us apply our own biases to issues such as these. If the shoe was on our foot...oh how the tune would change. 

So buddy did you actually read this entire thread or just decide to jump up on your soapbox today. I and more than a few otherrs on here actually do give a flying frig and as others can attest spend a lot of time and effort on this issue. As Bruce pointed out, actually knowing the extent of the problem helps as opposed to the toss some money at it, and hope it goes away, or ignore it an hopes it goes away which are the two options often being used.

 

[chyna]

I did in fact read the thread. In fact I deal with this type of issue on a daily basis as part of my job.  I also volunteer once a week at 2 homeless centres to help reach out. So perhaps my frustration is directly linked with having to deal with too many people that would rather debate stats to death instead of perhaps going in and getting their hands dirty. Through experience, I have learned that judging whether one person is more entitled than another to care, instead of looking at how can I help. The way I see it, if 1 out of 10 are using the system....at least I got to 9 instead wasting effort to see which of the 10 deserve the care

Sorry very touchy subject for me as I listen everyday to people make judgements on what deployment is more important than another, whether a person should be entitled to their OSI diagnosis based on their experience, tours etc...

Again...they're down on their luck and it should not matter how, but what can we do within our ability to help

 

[Monsoon]

Wh gives a flying f if the stats are over-reported, if they are cold war vets, or not!

It matters because the stat perpetuates a pernicious misperception amongst the Star's readership that military service is correlated with low-functioning individuals who are, in effect, one small step away from being homeless. Alternately, it perpetuates the myth that if you join the military, you will inevitably "get PTSD and go crazy", as does the over-reporting of CF suicides (which remain below the general population's average when adjusted for age and gender demographics). So yes, whether or not the stat is legitimate matters.

N.B. - I'm not saying we shouldn't make all efforts to help vets in need, nor am I saying that we shouldn't be doing more to help members who are in crisis (for any reason). What I am saying is that bogus stats are used by the military's various antagonists to delegitimize us and increase the apparent cost of our missions.

 

[pbi]

It matters because the stat perpetuates a pernicious misperception amongst the Star's readership that military service is correlated with low-functioning individuals who are, in effect, one small step away from being homeless. Alternately, it perpetuates the myth that if you join the military, you will inevitably "get PTSD and go crazy", as does the over-reporting of CF suicides (which remain below the general population's average when adjusted for age and gender demographics). So yes, whether or not the stat is legitimate matters.

N.B. - I'm not saying we shouldn't make all efforts to help vets in need, nor am I saying that we shouldn't be doing more to help members who are in crisis (for any reason). What I am saying is that bogus stats are used by the military's various antagonists to delegitimize us and increase the apparent cost of our missions.

My concern exactly. You can't fix a problem until you define it properly. Running around in circles exaggerating things or giving bad info will not help anybody. I would go much further than "the Star's readership" to include a broad range of otherwise uninformed Canadians.

We shouldn't be making it easy for the public to draw a mental box around vets and marginalize them by telling themselves "Oh, vets..well, they're all like that, aren't they?"If we are going to avoid the terrible and tragic consequences that beset veterans in the US after Vietnam, we need to avoid stoking two bonfires:

-that soldiers are otherwise socially useless people who couldn't get any other job, so it's no wonder they're back on the street; and

-if you go off to war, you come back as a psychotic looney-tune who will never be able to function again. And you were probably a nutter to volunteer in the first place.

It's not abandoning or ignoring vets. Its about making sure those things aren't easy for the public to rationalize.

 

[mariomike]

Homeless Veterans are a national concern. Perhaps the thread title could reflect that?

Aug 28, 2016

A by-the-numbers look at Canada's population of homeless military veterans
http://www.680news.com/2016/08/28/a-by-the-numbers-look-at-canadas-population-of-homeless-military-veterans/
OTTAWA – A by-the-numbers look at the state of homelessness among Canadian military veterans:

2,250: Estimated number of veterans who use shelters annually.

639: Homeless veterans registered in Veteran Affairs Canada’s database as of June 30.

232: Homeless veterans in the database who are between age 50 and 59.

138: Homeless veterans in the database who are over age 65.

235,000: Canadians who experience homelessness annually.

5-7: Range, in percentage points, of the homeless population who are veterans, based on municipal point-in-time homeless counts.

12,000: Estimated number of veterans experiencing homelessness in Canada, based on that spread.

40,000: Approximate number of veterans who experience homelessness in the United States annually.

47: Per cent by which the United States has decreased veterans homelessness since 2010 using measures being considered by Veterans Affairs Canada.

(Sources: Employment and Social Development Canada, Veterans Affairs Canada, Canadian Observatory on Homelessness,

 

[Monsoon]

So put another way: the "homeless veteran" population who use shelters (i.e. the verifiable number) correlates almost exactly to the ratio of male members of the Canadian population who serve in the military at some point in their lifetime (<1% in both cases).

The extrapolated figure based on municipal estimates (12,000) is literally unbelievable. With an active/reserve military establishment of 2.2MM in the US, the prevalence of veteran homelessness in Canada would need to be 10x the prevalence of veteran homelessness in the US for that number to be correct. I ain't buying it.

 

[Lightguns]

For discussion, I am concerned about how we are applying the term homeless veteran.  16 By 9 did a story on homeless veterans, the profiled 4 specifically, a Calgary cop who was homeless until he became a cop, a Canadian Vietnam Vet who has no Canadian service, a single 3 year engagement PPCLI vet who went and worked 25 years in the Alberta Oil Industry and a 10 year engagement Sailor who left the Navy because of alcohol problems.  The media apply a much larger vet umbrella than VA on this file.  Are we helping yourselves by signing on to a "vet is vet". 

 

[dapaterson]

Are we helping yourselves by signing on to a "vet is vet". 

On the other hand, who do you want to hand the hammer to decide "who is a vet"? 

"Sorry, your deployment to Bosnia wasn't enough to qualify as a vet."

"Sorry, the accident on your DP1 that left you paraplegic means you were never occupationally qualified, and therefore don't qualify as a vet."

 

[George Wallace]

Are we helping yourselves by signing on to a "vet is vet".

We just had that discussion and it came out that a "Vet" was anyone who had completed Basic Training before Release according to some. 

https://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Veteran

Linked to:  http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/about-us/definition-veteran

From the Veteran's Affairs website:

Date modified: 2015-11-03

NEW DEFINITION OF A VETERAN

Any former member of the Canadian Armed Forces who successfully underwent basic training and is honourably released.

When people think of Veterans, many immediately picture someone who served in the First World War, Second World War or the Korean War. While many Canadians recognize these traditional Veterans, the same may not always be true for Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) Veterans—those who served Canada since the Korean War.

In fact, some former CAF members don’t even see themselves as Veterans. Veterans Affairs Canada (VAC) wants to change this and is working to ensure CAF Veterans receive the honour and recognition they have earned and so richly deserve.

VAC considers any former member of the Canadian Armed Forces who releases with an honourable discharge and who successfully underwent basic training to be a Veteran.

This Veteran status recognizes the risk CAF members assume by wearing the uniform and pledging allegiance. Canada’s modern-day Veterans are carrying on the traditions, values and legacy of wartime Veterans and all Canadians, especially our youth, should be aware of their accomplishments and sacrifices.

Please note that other criteria, in addition to Veteran status, are needed to qualify for services from the Department.

 

[Lightguns]

I understand that but how can any organization be given endless liability for someone else's life?  You do three years and you leave, get job, have a great life for 25 years, things go bad and now the VA is responsible to fix it? 

 

[George Wallace]

I understand that but how can any organization be given endless liability for someone else's life?  You do three years and you leave, get job, have a great life for 25 years, things go bad and now the VA is responsible to fix it?

It sounds like you are saying that if you have a great life for 25 years in a civilian job after having "Served' you are no longer a Veteran.  That was not the case for any of the WW I, WW II, nor Korean Vets.  I have a friend now living in Columbia, who was diagnosed with PTSD twenty years after his Release for an incident that happened several years before his Release.  If he were to become homeless today because of his diagnosed problem, would he no longer fall under the "Veteran" standard, in your eyes?

 

[mariomike]

It does go on to say,

"Please note that other criteria, in addition to Veteran status, are needed to qualify for services from the Department."

 

[Lightguns]

No, I am saying that there is should be a limitation of liability to that which is service related.  If you leave after a short time, fit and healthy and go on to make your own way in the world, you have no claim beyond that which is service related, being a short time vet should not be a life time guarantee anymore than any other profession would offer.

 

[Lightguns]

It does go on to say,

"Please note that other criteria, in addition to Veteran status, are needed to qualify for services from the Department."

Ack, that would satisfy me.  I just don't believe life should have a guarantee for anyone, that makes it very boring. 

 

[George Wallace]

No, I am saying that there is should be a limitation of liability to that which is service related.  If you leave after a short time, fit and healthy and go on to make your own way in the world, you have no claim beyond that which is service related, being a short time vet should not be a life time guarantee anymore than any other profession would offer.

I do agree with that, but think I have been overruled by the political powers that be.

 

[mariomike]

Date modified: 2015-11-03

NEW DEFINITION OF A VETERAN

"When people think of Veterans, many immediately picture someone who served in the First World War, Second World War or the Korean War."

I found the date of interest. Less than a year ago.

The average age of WW2 veterans is 92.
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/news/general-statistics

I knew a lot of '46ers on the job. Sorry to see there are so few remaining, or in nursing homes.  Went to see one of them and couldn't understand a word he said.