12 gauge terminal ballistics

[Kal]

Many of us are aware of the stopping power of the 12 guage slug, but at what range/s does this round take a nosedive, and why? 

Shotguns slugs - not as accurate as a rifle - have less terminal effects as most ranges (hard to beleive but true) less penetration on hard targets due to the lead  of the slug deforming and absorbing some of the energy.

First time quoteing someone, so I'm not sre if their name is attached.  Quote is from KevinB.  Kevin yours and anyone else knowledgable of this matter is appreciated.

 

[Big Bad John]

I'd ask Wes when he gets home from the Mess.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Personal experience. 12 Gauge rifled slug fired from just infront of the hood of a car bounced off the windshield.  Messed up the windshield, but didn't penetrate.  Normal car, safety glass windshield.  This wasn't a sabot mind you.

 

[Kal]

I can understand that happening with the softness of the lead and the angle of the windshield.  Also windshields being rather resiliant to impact.  Mind you, if also heard of 9mm rounds ricocheting off them, too.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I know of one case where a 12-gauge slug penetrated heavy clothing and lodged in the abdominal muscles at about 600 m.

 

[MG34]

12 ga Rifled Slug 14 to 18 inches of penetration in a soft target

5.56mm NATO M855 62 grain projectile 13.4 inches of penetration

It is the size of the permanent cavity that causes wounding/death in the target,the Slug will only crush what it touches,while the 5.56mm round will cause a large permanent canity due to fragmentation and velocity. I wouldn't want to be hit with either.

 

[Kal]

MG34 thanks for the diagrams, they helped a lot.  I am aware of the frag and tumbling effect of the 5.56mm  and its destructive characteristics.  However, why is it then, some 'targets' require multiple hits from this caliber when the slug drops them in a heart beat?  Also, you mentioned velocity being a factor, why is it that a .45 with a velocity of 850 fps is a better stopper than a 115gr. 9mm at 1400?  I believe it has to do something with how ones body and nervous system is affected by shock of the larger round?  Thanks again for the pictures, very informative and helpful.....

Any other facts or opinions, anyone?

 

[KevinB]

First of all - I noticed the new avatar - congrats MG34... 
You deserve it.


Now for the Q at hand.  - impact veocities and the differences in the consrtuction of the bullets can affect the 5.56mm round greaterly.

I will post more tomorrow

 

[MG34]

MG34 thanks for the diagrams, they helped a lot.   I am aware of the frag and tumbling effect of the 5.56mm   and its destructive characteristics.   However, why is it then, some 'targets' require multiple hits from this caliber when the slug drops them in a heart beat?   Also, you mentioned velocity being a factor, why is it that a .45 with a velocity of 850 fps is a better stopper than a 115gr. 9mm at 1400?   I believe it has to do something with how ones body and nervous system is affected by shock of the larger round?   Thanks again for the pictures, very informative and helpful.....

Any other facts or opinions, anyone?

Velocity is mostly a factor when it comes to bullet design,the 5.56mm round for instance wether by accident or design breaks at it's cannalure when it hits a soft target,this causes the bullet to fragment. There is no majic bullet if I shoot you in the head with a 5.56mm you will be dead,if I shoot you in the leg or other non Central Nervous System (CNS) area you won't be,the same applies for the 12 ga slug. Alot of the 5.56mm round's bad press has come from folks that are using the round out of short barrel carbines,at long ranges (300m and beyond) in that situation the bullet cannot achieve the velocity required to fragment,it just becomes a solid projectile moving through a body.In the above post I stated that a bullet can only destroy what it touches,making the permanent cavity,if a 5.56mm bullet does not have the velocity to fragment,all it has to rely on is the permanent cavity to do damage,which isn't very large at all.
The .45 is more effective than the 9mm because it has a larger cross section,once again that permanent cavity thing again,the bigger the bullet the better chance of destroying more blood vessles,nerves,vital organs,etc. However all bets are off when hollow point or expanding ammunition is used as the higher velocity of the 9mm is much more efficent at causeing the hollow point to expand and be effective,not to say the .45 hollowpoints are a joke either as they can expand upward of an inch!The 9mm and in fact all handgun rounds do not possess the velocity required to cause damage by hydrostatic shock alone,the organs and blood vessels are simply pushed aside by the relatively slow shock wave produced by handgun bullets.Rifle rounds do have a chance at tearing and causing damage due to the hydrostatic shock,but their damage is done by fragmentation for the most part as well as sucking in bits of clothing,bone,dirt,etc along with it as it passes through the body.

 

[MG34]

First of all - I noticed the new avatar - congrats MG34...  
You deserve it.


Now for the Q at hand.   - impact veocities and the differences in the consrtuction of the bullets can affect the 5.56mm round greaterly.

I will post more tomorrow

Thanks Kevin,they will promote anyone these days,maybe now the clowns at DLR-5 will start listening. ;D

 

[Kal]

Very informative post, MG34.  Have learned much from it, thanks.  So if a 12 gauge slug were to fragment as does a 5.56 or similiar rounds it would be much more devasting.  I will look at the buckshot much more differently now.  Say though, for CQB, high threat warrants, etc. the 5.56 would be a better stopper, than the slug, then?  For the sake of discussion, would that mean to say, since the 5.56 has a more devastating wound than the 7.62 at closer ranges, (100m/less) it would be a better stopper for close-in work?   

 

[MG34]

Very informative post, MG34.   Have learned much from it, thanks.   So if a 12 gauge slug were to fragment as does a 5.56 or similiar rounds it would be much more devasting.   I will look at the buckshot much more differently now.   Say though, for CQB, high threat warrants, etc. the 5.56 would be a better stopper, than the slug, then?   For the sake of discussion, would that mean to say, since the 5.56 has a more devastating wound than the 7.62 at closer ranges, (100m/less) it would be a better stopper for close-in work?    

There are several fragmenting and expanding 12 ga slugs on the market,that are very effective.The 5.56mm is a much better round than the 7.62mm,or pistol calibers for high risk warrants and CQB.The 5.56mm will not at close ranges of 100m and in or more like 25m and in over penetrate the target,or pass through walls and such.The velocity at those ranges will cause the bullet to fragment upon striking thetarget or a heard surface.The caveat to this is barrel length and velocity,a long barreled weapon such as the C7A2 in it's current form may allow the bullet to pass through walls and such,but a short barreled weapon such as the M4A1,G36K and C,the C8A1 and shorter will cut down the chance of an overpenetration through a wall or something like that but still retain the velocity to cause the bullet to fragment. Kevin B has some interesting stuff on this matter,hopefully he will chime in.

 

[KevinB]

MG34 


The problem with the C77 ball round at high velocity is that it will break up very quickly in some mediums - the steel penetrator will penetrate some medium but not on spaced media or steeper angles.


The problem with 12ga rounds is they cause a tremendous amount of recoil - while 5.56mm is quite pleasnt to shoot - this is extremeely for follow up shots for failure drills where the tgtg is engaged to the body then head when the tgt is not stopped by CoM fire.

Shotguns we use breaching frangible slugs - that or less lethal rounds are the only real use these days.

 

[Kal]

Well, thank you gentlemen.  Can't think of anymore questions at the moment, but if I do, I will know who to ask.  Have learned a lot, and if there's anything else you or anyone else would like to add I would love you hear it.

 

[TCBF]

Has anyone fired any of those "Shoty" Aguila HD loads?

Tom

 

[MG34]

Yes they are a poor substitute for the "normal" rounds,they lack sufficent ballistic performance to do much of anything,and unless you are using a shotgun specifically made for them you will get stoppages galore  in any pump action shottie.

 

[TCBF]

But, golly, they sure are cute!

Tom