09/10 Budget Impact on PRes - Unit stand-downs, Class B Freeze, and so on!

[Otis]

Just thought I'd point out that none of these are new issues.

When I was class B 10 years ago, they hummed and hawed about renewing my contract after the intial 3 years was up, FINALLY telling me I was going to still be employed on the 21st or 22nd of March!

That schmozzle was one of several factors that pushed me towards RegF ...

Otis

 

[Jarnhamar]

:nod:

 

[Haggis]

In LFCA the "freeze" has been, for the most part, lifted today.

 

[Infanteer]

There are a lot of misconceptions and naïveté in this discussion so far.

Given that there are many frames of reference on many different Class B positions, I'd argue that not having the same opinion as George Wallace doesn't qualify as a misconception or a sign of being naive.  Just make your point.

As for “if you want the job, CT to Regular Force” idea being thrown out by a couple of naïve members here; that is ridiculous.  I often encourage that the opposite should also be proposed – CT from Reg to Reserve after a long career.  The Reserves need the experience.

How is this ridiculous?  Our career manager has stated that RSS positions in our trade are not filled due to a lack of WOs and Capts.  So, if there were more Captains and WOs, then there would be asses to fill those those seats.

 

[George Wallace]

How is this ridiculous?  Our career manager has stated that RSS positions in our trade are not filled due to a lack of WOs and Capts.  So, if there were more Captains and WOs, then there would be asses to fill those those seats.

So?  Not enough Regular Force to put into RSS positions.  No Class B to backfill.  No organization, training, administration, etc.  Looks pretty ridiculous to me.  Perhaps you subscribe to the "Magicwand theory".....Poof!  This evenings administration and training is brought to you by the quick flick of Infanteer's magicwand.  All TSRs, Lectures, pay, Stores, transport will just magically appear and be in order.  No administration required.

Brilliant!

 

[aesop081]

So?  Not enough Regular Force to put into RSS positions.  No Class B to backfill.  No organization, training, administration, etc.  Looks pretty ridiculous to me.  Perhaps you subscribe to the "Magicwand theory".....Poof!  This evenings administration and training is brought to you by the quick flick of Infanteer's magicwand.  All TSRs, Lectures, pay, Stores, transport will just magically appear and be in order.  No administration required.

Brilliant!

So i guess we are back to to many units, not enough resources. Amalgamate units where possible. That way you dont need to man as many ORs, ops cells, etc...

The AF had to do it. Why cant the reserves ?

 

[Infanteer]

Brilliant!

Probably on par with "Let's just cover up our problems with Class B!"

Thing is, others, like the post above, have at least made a suggestion for how to fix things.  Instead of casually writing them off as ridiculous and naive, what's yours?

 

[George Wallace]

So i guess we are back to to many units, not enough resources. Amalgamate units where possible. That way you dont need to man as many ORs, ops cells, etc...

The AF had to do it. Why cant the reserves ?

You may not want to go there.  We have one newly promoted Reg Force Acting Lacking Air Force MCpl RMS Clerk fresh in from Cold Lake now doing the job as Chief Clerk for two Army Reserve Units, learning on the fly the Reserve Systems, with an Infantryman on a Class B as her Pay Clerk.  The system is already broken.  You don't have to make the suggestion.  It has already become fact. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

Well, I suppose we could have the Army amalgamate units based on sound decisions for greater efficiencies and use of limited resources, or we can just wait until the collapsing administrative system forces it to happen.  I'm sure that will be better for everyone.

 

[aesop081]

You may not want to go there.  We have one newly promoted Reg Force Acting Lacking Air Force MCpl RMS Clerk fresh in from Cold Lake now doing the job as Chief Clerk for two Army Reserve Units, learning on the fly the Reserve Systems, with an Infantryman on a Class B as her Pay Clerk.  The system is already broken.  You don't have to make the suggestion.  It has already become fact.

So your solution is to maintain the status quo ?

Now THAT is brillaint.

If units do not have the means to be sustainable, then things have to change. Consolidate units or outright eliminate them. Class B is just a band-aid.

 

[George Wallace]

Probably on par with "Let's just cover up our problems with Class B!"

Thing is, others, like the post above, have at least made a suggestion for how to fix things.  Instead of casually writing them off as ridiculous and naive, what's yours?

???

What suggestions?  Make them all CT to Reg Force?  Perhaps you have missed something in the translation.

Freezing and/or cutting Class B is an ill conceived knee jerk decision made by someone with very little thought as to the long term effects.    Converting "if they want to work, then they can CT to Regular Force" does not solve any problem, but only compounds it.  You might as well just disband the Reserves and loose a very high percentage of your Deployable pers.  The Training System can not keep up with the Recruiting System.  This leaves the Army toothless in the next year or so if that is the desire.

Even in the 70's, the idea was to Train the Reserves so that they can Train themselves.  They require full-time Reservists in certain critical positions to do so.  As I have already said, Infanteer's magicwand is not a reality.

Your suggestions are not solutions.

 

[aesop081]

Your suggestions are not solutions.

Neither are yours. To use your words, the system is broken and all you have to offer is to just keep going. No one said that the reserves do not need some full-time positions. I dont think any one can argue to the contrary. But the shear number of them have likely outstripped the army's ability to pay for them. Aside from the need for some full-time staff, a reservist is a part-time soldier and if one wants 100% guaranteed full-time military employment, the RegF is the place to get it.

You have been around this site long enough to have seen the growth in the number of posters who come here asking to join the reserves and work full-time right away. It is becoming an expectation and it shouldnt be.

 

[George Wallace]

So your solution is to maintain the status quo ?

Our "Status quo" was one Sgt and two MCpls doing Ops and Training as well as Recruiting and then teaching QL5A full time each summer.  We are now getting out of that "Status quo" by hiring a Class B Ops O, a Class B Ops WO, a Class B Admin O and a Class B QM/Tpt NCO, leaving the Sgt and two MCpls to concentrate on Training and Recruiting under the direction of a Class A CO and Training O.  We have to do this as we have tripled our Unit strength and are constantly called upon to fill posns on Ops and within other CF organizations as Class B and Class C.

 

[aesop081]

  We have to do this as we have tripled our Unit strength and are constantly called upon to fill posns on Ops and within other CF organizations as Class B and Class C.

If you did not have the means to sustain that large a growth, why did it go ahead ?

My unit is constantly tasked with sending people on this or that, yet we manage to say "NO' when required so that the unit doesnt fall apart. Sounds to me like your unit needs better management, the same kind you suggest for people who made this "freeze" happen.

 

[George Wallace]

......... Aside from the need for some full-time staff, a reservist is a part-time soldier and if one wants 100% guaranteed full-time military employment, the RegF is the place to get it.

I have already stated that on average 50% of our crses CT.  We loose our talent before it is even acquired.  When the current Ex-Reg Force Class B staff reach their end date (CRA, Release, whatever) what is left to perpetuate the training, or the Unit? 

We need RMS clerks.  We are advertising for them.  Along comes a Army wide Class B employment freeze.  Now we can't hire them.  Thanks!

 

[McG]

How much of the problem is the units & how much of it is HQs growing themselves on Class B positions?

How much of the problem is lack of central coordination?  We've seen the number of Class B opportunities exceed the number of reservists ready to fill them.  In this environment of locally driven growth the national priorities are competing on a level playing field with local whims.  The locally driven growth needs to be restrained by some level of central coordination to ensure the priorities get filled.

... it should be noted that "local whims" might include sections of the Land Staff in Ottawa deciding they need new positions.

 

[aesop081]

  We loose our talent before it is even acquired.

So hiring them class B is the solution ? No.

When the current Ex-Reg Force Class B staff reach their end date (CRA, Release, whatever) what is left to perpetuate the training, or the Unit?

Have no fear, more of the same will be available.

  Along comes a Army wide Class B employment freeze.  Now we can't hire them.  Thanks!

So either work the ones you have to death ( not a good plan) or control the demands to match resources. Imagine that, the rest of the CF has to do it......

Over here, we are the largest operational Sqn in the AF and our OR only has 1 Sgt, 1 Mcpl, a Cpl and one Pte. The Sgt is also the admin O ( officer is in the sandbox), the unit IT coordinator, the DA holder for the unit, the unit security O, etc....we lost our B class RMS over a year ago and low and behold, the house didnt fall apart did it.......

We are losing our B class standards pilot.....life isnt stopping. The unit just had to make choices about what it can and cant do.......

 

[George Wallace]

If you did not have the means to sustain that large a growth, why did it go ahead ?

It was ordered.

My unit is constantly tasked with sending people on this or that, yet we manage to say "NO' when required so that the unit doesnt fall apart. Sounds to me like your unit needs better management, the same kind you suggest for people who made this "freeze" happen.

My unit has fairly good management.  We are victims of our own success, and the lack of management at Area, and higher, and the will to finish what we were ordered to do.  Our Unit fills posns that are undermanned on every Op.  It is not our choice that our young troops are keen and want to deploy.  It is not our choice that the CF can not fill posns that we can fill.  With the success, we were just becoming able to fill posns to generate more members to our Trade.  Members who Deploy as well as CT.  With a few more Class B posns we would be able to maintain this level of training and commitment at a reasonable level.  Without the Class B posns we will lose all continuity and experience. 

If the CF really wants, many of our members could leave the Reserves, and not join the CF, but deploy as civilians as part of NATO and earn several times what they could in the CF, with almost all the same benefits.  Some in the Trade are already doing so, and keeping others across the country informed as to openings.  The CF can keep them or loose them.........the CF's choice.

We would then have to look into Loyalty and Commitment of the individuals, not the CF's 'desires'.  That would be heading off track a bit, but not too much so.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So i guess we are back to to many units, not enough resources. Amalgamate units where possible. That way you dont need to man as many ORs, ops cells, etc...

The AF had to do it. Why cant the reserves ?

Reserve wise it's hard to coordinate excersises, training, work and all things army when your 100KMs apart from each other.


The Regular force NEEDs the reserves.
The Regular force can't handle a mass exodus of resevists CTing.
The Reg forces hardly has enough room, training area, ranges and such for the soldiers they have. Won't even touch training.
Reserve units which support and supplement the reg force need a full time staff t run it. Especially considering the draw on manpower tours are taking on the reserves, not to mention other full time taskings.

 

[George Wallace]

Have no fear, more of the same will be available.

???  How?  Class B is frozen.  No hiring.

Over here, we are the largest operational Sqn in the AF and our OR only has 1 Sgt, 1 Mcpl, a Cpl and one Pte. The Sgt is also the admin O ( officer is in the sandbox), the unit IT coordinator, the DA holder for the unit, the unit security O, etc....we lost our B class RMS over a year ago and low and behold, the house didnt fall apart did it.......

We are losing our B class standards pilot.....life isnt stopping. The unit just had to make choices about what it can and cant do.......

Right.  I am AUSS.  I, nor anyone in my unit, has had their MPPRs updated since Aug 2008.  We have had no updates to our records in PeopleSoft since summer of 2008.  We have had 100% turn around in our OR four times in the last year.  I had an outstanding Claim for eight months, and finally had to have a Sgt RMS Clerk in London finalize it over the phone, fax and email.  I have to deal with DPM Secur 2 and tell them that my guys are no longer Infantry, and need a higher level than Lvl II to do their jobs.  No hiring Class B only keeps us few in my unit frustrated in the brick walls we pound our heads off of to get things done daily.  Imagine if we were Class A.  Luckily, we were able to get authority to hire some prior to the freeze, and just as the freeze was being announced.  We are hamstrung by the freeze to fill the last couple of posns to keep our heads above water.

If the rumour that the freeze is over, then we can heave a sigh of relief.

I will admit, that there probably are some Class B posns out there that are unnecessary, but I can't think of any.  I know that Class B Reservists are filling a good majority of posns in CFRCs, NDHQ, the various Dot.Coms, operational units, as well as many similar posns as civilians working for DND and its various Agencies.  Class B and Class C Reservists can be found in almost every CF organization, right up to the top.

In reality, this Class B freeze is a Red Herring.  The CF has had it's budget cut.  The Army has a High Tempo and is overspending.  In past years, the end year surpluses in the other two elements have offset any major budget concerns.  This year those surpluses are not likely to be there.  The Army is looking for money.  I needs to find it somewhere.  Class B seemed to be an instant fix; but not a long term one.  Saving a nickel today, but costing thousands tomorrow was the knee jerk reaction.