09/10 Budget Impact on PRes - Unit stand-downs, Class B Freeze, and so on!

[Spanky]

The idea of having to go to the G spot for Mod 3 of a GWagon CC course is getting really old. The typical answer is 'We have to maintain the standard'. Horsehockey. Every Reserve unit is more than capable of maintaining the standard, in situ, with unit resources. Is CTC telling us that all those RSS Staff at Reserve units are not capable of maintaining the standard? If not, what are they doing at those Reserve units when their job is to mentor? It's a heck of a lot easier to send someone from CTC, to a unit, for two days to ensure the standard is being maintained than it is to force Reservists from all over the country to stop drop on a moments notice and go to Gagetown because they switched dates again.

The rumour that it is nothing more than a money grab from the Reserves enabling the school to stockpile resources
for the Reg force courses gains more credence everytime they revamp the course and make it harder for Reservist to attend.

I think these courses should be done at unit level and let CTC have that extra time to run more Reg force courses.

At the risk of taking the intent of this thread off the tracks again, I have to agree.  There is no reason why all three mods of this crse could not be handled locally.

As for local solutions not "cutting it".  I agree that that is the perception and probable response of higher.  I disagree that local solutions to problems won't work.

 

[vonGarvin]

The idea of having to go to the G spot for Mod 3 of a GWagon CC course is getting really old. The typical answer is 'We have to maintain the standard'. Horsehockey. Every Reserve unit is more than capable of maintaining the standard, in situ, with unit resources. Is CTC telling us that all those RSS Staff at Reserve units are not capable of maintaining the standard? If not, what are they doing at those Reserve units when their job is to mentor? It's a heck of a lot easier to send someone from CTC, to a unit, for two days to ensure the standard is being maintained than it is to force Reservists from all over the country to stop drop on a moments notice and go to Gagetown because they switched dates again.

I can only comment on this from the point of view of the School of Cool, the Infantry School.  Standards is an organisation at the school, separate from the training companies, and part of its job is to ensure that the standard is being met (eg: TP and QS adhered to in every respect, and so forth).  Reg Force line units don't have standards organisations, so to ask the RSS to do this task is beyond their capability.  As the Devil's advocate, do RSS dudes learn about QS, TP, IT, etc?  Heck, some instructors find all that stuff "fuzzy", but their role as mentor one could liken more to an instructor.

For one person to visit every unit as they conduct training to ensure standards are met would take more than two days.  Recently, staff from the School of Cool spent a week with 2 or 3 VP as they did a sniper course.  One week.  Prior to that was some training in Petawawa.  Trust me, they would have to be there to oversee the indoc training and so forth.  (As for monitoring instructors, that is not the job of standards: that's a chain of command responsibility, just in case anyone was wondering.)

As for the date changes, I concur: they are a function of many competing factors, but they still suck.  But from this end, and with Infantry units in particular (both reg and reserve), sometimes it's like pulling teeth to get commitments on time, but that's another story for another thread.

So, in short, for a career course (3A, etc), not only would potential Crew Commanders benefit from getting instruction right at the Centre of Excellence, but this is also a course, for all its warts, bumps and bruises, where these candidates get to go back to their units and expand their horizons, as it were.  They get the latest and greatest, as well as to develop professional relationships with peers from across the nation, and that's important, no?


Anyway, just my $0.02

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I can only comment on this from the point of view of the School of Cool, the Infantry School.  Standards is an organisation at the school, separate from the training companies, and part of its job is to ensure that the standard is being met (eg: TP and QS adhered to in every respect, and so forth).  Reg Force line units don't have standards organisations, so to ask the RSS to do this task is beyond their capability.  As the Devil's advocate, do RSS dudes learn about QS, TP, IT, etc?  Heck, some instructors find all that stuff "fuzzy", but their role as mentor one could liken more to an instructor.

Lots of our Reserve instructor have their Instructor indoc training from the Battle School already.

For one person to visit every unit as they conduct training to ensure standards are met would take more than two days.  Recently, staff from the School of Cool spent a week with 2 or 3 VP as they did a sniper course.  One week.  Prior to that was some training in Petawawa.  Trust me, they would have to be there to oversee the indoc training and so forth.  (As for monitoring instructors, that is not the job of standards: that's a chain of command responsibility, just in case anyone was wondering.)

Sorry. I helped instruct on a Reserve CC course, out west, that they let run decentralized from the School. Standards from the school was there for two days at the beginning and came for the final course debrief. That was it.

As for the date changes, I concur: they are a function of many competing factors, but they still suck.  But from this end, and with Infantry units in particular (both reg and reserve), sometimes it's like pulling teeth to get commitments on time, but that's another story for another thread.

So, in short, for a career course (3A, etc), not only would potential Crew Commanders benefit from getting instruction right at the Centre of Excellence, but this is also a course, for all its warts, bumps and bruises, where these candidates get to go back to their units and expand their horizons, as it were.  They get the latest and greatest, as well as to develop professional relationships with peers from across the nation, and that's important, no?

There is no latest and greatest as far as GWagon CC is concerned. It's really no different that we did with the Iltis. Some fancier names for stuff is all (Someone got their 'Leading Change' bubble filled :


Anyway, just my $0.02

Reserve Gwagon Crew Commander is not rocket science. We don't need the school to do the course. If that were the case, we'd be doing the Patrol Commander course at the school also. Guess what? That's a local run course

 

[vonGarvin]

Reserve Gwagon Crew Commander is not rocket science. We don't need the school to do the course. If that were the case, we'd be doing the Patrol Commander course at the school also. Guess what? That's a local run course

I'm not arguing that it is rocket science.  I think (guessing here), that the Patrol Commander is not a career course (eg: 3A or 3B).

But, anyway, just throwing in perspective from "the other end of the hall" as it were.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm not arguing that it is rocket science.  I think (guessing here), that the Patrol Commander is not a career course (eg: 3A or 3B).

But, anyway, just throwing in perspective from "the other end of the hall" as it were.

Patrol Commander is a career course. It's the requirement for Sgt.

 

[vonGarvin]

Patrol Commander is a career course. It's the requirement for Sgt.

Seen.  Now, is there scope in the armour reserve to conduct the courses in an Area School?  Or do the numbers suggest that they could be done at the unit level?

 

[Nfld Sapper]

There is a precident to run some decentralized courses. CFSME let 56 ES run MOD 1 of the Section Member Course at the unit level in the spring of 2008 (IIRC), they also let 31 CER run the QL6B Part 1 RECCE OPS course last year and it looks like 39 CER (44 FES TRAIL) will be running the QL6A SECTION COMMANDER Course this year.

 

[Spanky]

Seen.  Now, is there scope in the armour reserve to conduct the courses in an Area School?  Or do the numbers suggest that they could be done at the unit level?

The numbers vary from year to year.  In the past couple of years we have run DP2, DP3 (CC Crse) Mods 1 and 2 and DP 3 (Ptl Ldr) crses with the other armd unit in 31 Bde.  That has allowed us to pool resources, staff, and candidates.
As it stand right now, our unit's recruiting has been very effective and we have enough candidates to run our own DP2.  With the increase in MCPL in the past year or so, we have the critical mass required to run a unit DP3 crse.  Right now we have upwards of a dozen MCPL who cannot practice their trade as they do not have a CC Crse.

 

[greentoblue]

Some more numbers released out of Ottawa today that I haven't seen anywhere else.  I am sure that it is no coincidence that the numbers were released during the first working day of Boxing Week  :

Quote: "Military seeks $190M in cuts ... The air force is required to cut $59 million while the navy has $52 million in reductions to make, according to the Canadian Forces. It was recently revealed that the army's portion of the reduction is $80 million."

http://news.globaltv.com/world/story.html?id=2385473

 

[McG]

....  they also let 31 CER run the QL6B Part 1 RECCE OPS course last year and it looks like 39 CER (44 FES TRAIL) will be running the QL6A SECTION COMMANDER Course this year.

Except, those examples are not unit courses.  They were/are "export" courses and appear on the national calendar for CFSME.  There is still a fair amount of work required from CFSME (not just Standards Sqn), and the students & instructors come from wider than just the host unit.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

IIRC the Recce Ops course, the staff all came from 31 CER. The school just ensured that all the necessary info minus PC's where avail on documentum.



EDITED TO ADD

Understood that they where exported courses, only examples I could really find that would fit the questions above.

 

[CountDC]

It's expected if such approval is granted that the member will parade at least as often as his average Class A counterpart, particularly if his EU is granting "CTO".

If giving CTO then yes they would be expected to parade.  I would have the supervisor at the unit send me an email every week confirming the member paraded.  if he didn't parade then he better be at work.

About three years ago, I was involved with three young Class B troops who had been granted this permission by the EU and were also granted (and took) regular "CTO" even though they rarely paraded with the parent unit. 

the term AWOL comes to mind.

I've been involved in a couple of redresses of this nature in the past year, from a policy interpretation perspective.  The parent unit CO is not obliged to reccommend any member for Class B employment and there are many many reasons why a CO would not do so (member is not a good "fit", is a disciplinary/admin burden, fails to meet prerequisiites, or the job may set the member up for failure, just to name a few). 

The ultimate decision to hire a member on Class B rests with the EU, but the EU cannot hire a member without CO/chain of command concurrence.

agree the CO is not obliged to recommend nor did I at any point indicate he was.  He was not allowed to refuse to forward the members application for an advertised class b, he could only add his comments that the member was not recommended and why.

In the past there were many cases where the CO did not recommend or agree to the member being hired on cl b but the EU hired the member anyway.  Have they brought something out to prevent this? 

 

[CountDC]

And allow a mere staff officer in the EU to second guess a Commanding Officer?  You're kidding, right?  Would you apply the same logic to a member who is screened out of a tour, JTF 2, CSOR or a CT by the unit, PSO, doctors, PSP?  Should the mounting unit, JTF 2 or CSOR have the (in your opinion) right to challenge the selection process results?

Seems to me that you have little faith in the CoC's ability to manage it's members and their employment.

umm sometimes that "mere staff officer" is an ex CO.  For example where I am at now we are looking for a 3 year Cl B,  The Staff Officer that will have final say is a LCdr who was also a CO in the past.

as for faith in the CoC - there were cases that the CoC tried to prevent members from being employed by other units.  Sometimes it was because the member was the only clerk at the unit and they didn't want to lose them.  Sometimes it was because the member was not a fit at the unit because they did not kiss a$$.  Then sometimes members came with glowing reports from the CoC only to prove to be a dud the unit wanted to pawn off on someone else. I have lot's of faith in the CoC's ability to manage it's members and their employment to the benefit of the unit only. From talking to someone that just did RSS at a unit there are still too many cases of the "old boys" network out there.

 

[Haggis]

If giving CTO then yes they would be expected to parade.  I would have the supervisor at the unit send me an email every week confirming the member paraded.  if he didn't parade then he better be at work.

At the outset, the EU and parent unit didn't communicate very well.  Once this was discoverd, the communication went quite well along the line you describe.

the term AWOL comes to mind.

Having gone down the "charging a Class B with AWOL" road several times (with several JAGs) it's pretty well impossible in all but the most blatant cases.  Try it sometimes and if you actually get one through to a conviction, give me the name of your JAG.

agree the CO is not obliged to recommend nor did I at any point indicate he was.  He was not allowed to refuse to forward the members application for an advertised class b, he could only add his comments that the member was not recommended and why.

  I've never seen that direction anywhere and it isn't mentioned at all in Mil Pers Instr 20-04 or A-PM-245 chapter 19.

In the past there were many cases where the CO did not recommend or agree to the member being hired on cl b but the EU hired the member anyway.

And how could the EU hire without chain of command concurrence?  Obviously there's a bit more to this scenario.

umm sometimes that "mere staff officer" is an ex CO.  For example where I am at now we are looking for a 3 year Cl B,  The Staff Officer that will have final say is a LCdr who was also a CO in the past.

But he's not a CO any longer and shoiuld know better than to overrule his peers.  How would he have liked it if it had been done to him?

as for faith in the CoC - there were cases that the CoC tried to prevent members from being employed by other units.  Sometimes it was because the member was the only clerk at the unit and they didn't want to lose them.

  There's the CO looking out for the best intersts of his unit.  Go figure.

Then sometimes members came with glowing reports from the CoC only to prove to be a dud the unit wanted to pawn off on someone else.

That one I blame squarely on the CO.  Exporting the problem doesn't fix the problem, particularly when the member gets fired from his Class B and ends up back on the parent unit doorstep as even more of an administrative burden.  But, hey, the Reg F does it too.  How many "duds" have been dumped on Reserve units as RSS?

 

[Otts]

Im in a Reserve infantry unit, and we've had to cancel some upcoming field-exs, and stay on stand down a few extra weeks. Pretty much no new recruits either, which is expected.
We had a BMQ, BMQ (co-op with high schools), DP2A, and PLQ cancelled on top of that though

 

[CountDC]

Having gone down the "charging a Class B with AWOL" road several times (with several JAGs) it's pretty well impossible in all but the most blatant cases.  Try it sometimes and if you actually get one through to a conviction, give me the name of your JAG.

The times have changed - it was done some time around 98 by summary trial. Member was consistently late for work.

  I've never seen that direction anywhere and it isn't mentioned at all in Mil Pers Instr 20-04 or A-PM-245 chapter 19.
And how could the EU hire without chain of command concurrence?  Obviously there's a bit more to this scenario.

It was commonly done in the 80's and 90's. Unit concurrence was not even asked for.  The member applied for the position and the EU hired them. In some cases such as mine in 89 the member was contacted directly by the EU due to a recommendation from someone at the EU and asked if they wanted the job (the old boy network). Competitions, advertising, etc were not required.  As for the direction - it was something that was passed down from the area HQ at the time, it may have even been an area policy.  I originally asked if it is something that is still being done.  By the different answers here it is obvious that some places are still doing it while others do not.

But he's not a CO any longer and shoiuld know better than to overrule his peers.  How would he have liked it if it had been done to him?

Overrule his peers and higher ranking officers at the subunits is a big part of his current job (with the CoS backing).  He didn't and still doesn't like it done to him but as he says - it is all part of the job.

  There's the CO looking out for the best intersts of his unit.  Go figure.

Which is fine if it does not adversely affect the member without valid reason.  To say I do not want my clerk to be hired class b because I have not recruited anyone to replace him/her is not good.  You are trying to keep this person on Class A at the unit while they are looking for Class B employment.  Don't know about now but the clerks I knew that the unit tried this with simply transferred to the EU or supp res and took the job anyway.  The unit then had the problem of trying to find a clerk.  Not easy to do when you have a rep in the clerk world of being a bad unit to work at. From what I hear it is still easy for clerks to jump around on class B's.

That one I blame squarely on the CO.  Exporting the problem doesn't fix the problem, particularly when the member gets fired from his Class B and ends up back on the parent unit doorstep as even more of an administrative burden.  But, hey, the Reg F does it too.  How many "duds" have been dumped on Reserve units as RSS?

Ahh - but in the reg f case it is not a CO recommending the member for employment and saying they are great.  It is a career manager filling all the holes they can with the people they have.  In the Reg F the sell job is usually to give a great PER so the member will be promoted and posted out (hopefully to RSS)  ;D  OK - it is the same thing with a different route. 

Admin burdens are what the C&P process is there for.  If the member is one then I am all for getting rid of them with due process.  Follow all the steps (really not that much additional work) and show the member the door. I was involved in the process for a dud sent to us from the brigade HQ, have seen numerous cases in the reg f (just PA'd a few) and even put the final nail in the coffin for a civilian I was supervising one day (don't ever tell me to get out of my orderly room while talking like a sailor  :rage: ).  Not a fast process but it does work.

So - it appears there is still no set firm rule in force out there for all reserves.

wonder if the mods are going to separate this thread.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Wow, this thread brings back a lot of memories.  Good times.

For those still wondering about the local impact, MCG identified it early: each level of command sets different priorities as to what is cut and what is preserved.

 

[vonGarvin]

For what it's worth, as a class B reservist in 1989, I was charged with, and convicted of, AWOL  :'(

(I was 3 hours late getting back to Borden, due to a late train, and I'm still bitter)

 

[Spanky]

For what it's worth, as a class B reservist in 1989, I was charged with, and convicted of, AWOL  :'(

(I was 3 hours late getting back to Borden, due to a late train, and I'm still bitter)

It's been 20 years, it's time to let it go.  You've got to stop letting the past hold you back. You've got to get beyond it.  We're all here to help.  Let it go. 

 

[dapaterson]

For what it's worth, as a class B reservist in 1989, I was charged with, and convicted of, AWOL  :'(

(I was 3 hours late getting back to Borden, due to a late train, and I'm still bitter)

Anyone who spends time in Borden gets what they deserve.  N'est pas, Vern?