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Hamas invaded Israel 2023

  • Thread starter Thread starter McG
  • Start date Start date
doesn't know his history though. 'Refugees' from Palestine have been waiting to go home since 1947, hasn't happened yet and those countries that have taken them in have lived to regret it

You would think he’d worry about Manitobans first, not virtue signal about a conflict on the other side of the world. He should volunteer to give northern Manitoba to the poor gaza refugees. Clean drinking water for FN communities can wait.
 
I notice there are three Chinese ships also in the region. Interesting.
China operates its own anti-piracy forces in that area, simply as a lot of the Pirates don't care who's flag you carry.

My guess is that the US is trying to get China to speak to Iran to reign in it's dogs. Likely the impact on shipping is going to bite China as well.
China and Iran aren't exactly buddies - the IRGC is just as happy to attack them these days.
 
I wonder how much of the North American economy flows through Suez these days anyway. There's a point where it becomes a Europe - Asia problem to solve.

This whole thing feels like a scheme to suck the US into yet one more conflict.

:unsure:
 
I wonder how much of the North American economy flows through Suez these days anyway. There's a point where it becomes a Europe - Asia problem to solve.

This whole thing feels like a scheme to suck the US into yet one more conflict.

:unsure:
The way global supply chains and global order function means an Asian/European problem is an Americas problem.

With a few more years, and a determined effort to "nearshore" or repatriate supply chains, maybe we could ignore the Red Sea/Suez problems.
 
Egypt isn’t stupid.


Manitoba NDP however…
That's hilarious

Canada truly is turning into nothing more than a plot of land, up for grabs.

Meanwhile I'm very proud that, as Quebeccer, my government has come out against Canada's pro-terrorist ceasefire vote at the UNGA.
 
The way global supply chains and global order function means an Asian/European problem is an Americas problem.

With a few more years, and a determined effort to "nearshore" or repatriate supply chains, maybe we could ignore the Red Sea/Suez problems.
Maybe we can, or...

We must.

With a faltering American hegemonic power, and increasingly ambitious alternative powers, well... I've already mentioned what I think of the RBIO's future.
 

Counter-Point

Ben Wallace is wrong: Israel's tactics are the only way to crush Hamas​

The former Defence Secretary misunderstands the situation on the ground and the military realities the IDF faces
RICHARD KEMP18 December 2023 • 4:43pm
Richard Kemp



Soldiers stand at the entrance of a tunnel that Hamas reportedly used to attack Israel

In his Telegraph article today, Ben Wallace repeatedly misunderstands the situation in Gaza. To accuse Israel of “a killing rage” and “indiscriminate” assaults is untrue and unfair to an army that surpasses all others in its ability to attack an enemy while doing everything possible to minimise civilian casualties. As General Martin Dempsey, the Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, said a few years ago: “Israel went to extraordinary lengths to limit collateral damage and civilian casualties. In fact, we sent a team of senior officers to get the lessons from the measures they took to prevent civilian casualties”.

I have been in Israel and in the Gaza Strip since this war began, and I know that the measures Israel took back then are the measures they are taking now; except they have been improved on by further battlefield experience in the intervening years.
Despite that, yes, many innocent civilians have been tragically killed. But Hamas plans all of its operations with one overriding aim: to force Israel to kill civilians in Gaza. That is an even higher priority for them than actually killing IDF soldiers and civilians, because it achieves their objective of delegitimising, vilifying and isolating Israel among the world community.

Wallace accuses the IDF of breaking the Geneva Conventions, using disproportionate force, collective punishment and forced movement of civilians. How can he know whether or not the force Israel uses is disproportionate?

Proportionality has a specific definition in the Geneva Conventions. It means that an attack may only be carried out if the expected harm to civilians is not excessive in relation to the expected military advantage. How is he in a position to judge that? Perhaps he is thinking about the civilian to combatant casualty ratio, in which Israel has a better track record than most other armies in the world – but that statistic is impossible for him to know. Unless of course he is working on Hamas figures, which are likely to be inflated, take no account of the many Palestinian civilian deaths they themselves have inflicted, and make no distinction between civilian and combatant deaths.

Where too is evidence of collective punishment? If military operations that bring death, suffering and destruction on civilians is collective punishment, then that applies to virtually every war that has ever been fought. If he means denying or restricting supply of commodities needed by civilians, but likely to be used by enemy forces, then that is permissible under the laws of war.

The idea that Israel is somehow breaking the Conventions by forced movement of civilians is also incorrect. Under the laws of war combatants on both sides are required, where possible, to warn civilians of an impending attack and take whatever steps they can to move them to safety or relative safety. Where Israel has planned to launch attacks, it has followed its obligations by warning civilians to leave. Hamas has done the opposite, giving no warning of attacks that endanger civilians and sometimes forcing them to remain in place in the face of an IDF attack.
According to Wallace “Israel needs to recognise it has time on its side”. It does not. Hamas has continued to fire missiles at Israeli civilians since the start. There was at least one barrage from Gaza today, and a few days ago Jerusalem itself came under fire. Rocket launches have only diminished in volume as the IDF has closed in. Although the Iron Dome missile defence system is highly effective, every single rocket fired out of Gaza will potentially kill or maim Israeli civilians.

And do the thousands of internally displaced Israeli citizens fleeing Hamas’s terror have time on their side? It is the Israeli government’s duty to protect them and create the necessary security for them to return to their homes in safety.

That Wallace should accuse Israel of “playing footsie with Putin, while Russian money fuelled the Iranian rocket and drone industry” is misinformed. Israel has been navigating some of the most treacherous diplomatic waters with Moscow whose forces are deployed in Syria, to deconflict IDF air operations against Iranian proxies that have been trying to build a base of attack against Israel from inside that country.
Ultimately, whilst quick to criticise the IDF, Wallace offers no alternative solutions for eliminating the existential threat from Hamas. He does seem to suggest that Israel should take some kind of lessons from Northern Ireland. The reality is that the two situations couldn’t be further apart. And he misunderstands the way the Troubles were brought to an end. It did not happen, as he says, because “Nationalists recognised that the IRA didn’t have its wellbeing and economic interests at heart”, but because of military force combined with the almost total intelligence penetration of the terrorist networks. Regardless, the West did not adopt his definition of the Northern Ireland approach to destroying ISIS.
Israel must be allowed to defend itself with whatever military force is necessary. It simply has no other choice.

 
I wonder how much of the North American economy flows through Suez these days anyway. There's a point where it becomes a Europe - Asia problem to solve.

This whole thing feels like a scheme to suck the US into yet one more conflict.

:unsure:
A lot. My brother used to do freight brokering for an east coast shipping company, I was asking him. Tons of North American bound cargo goes through the Suez. West coast ports only have so much capacity to absorb redirected cargo flow.
 
I'll note that no one, anywhere, as far as I've been able to tell, has described what exactly is wrong with Israel's operations and how it should proceed instead.
It’s the issue Israel is conducting operations period. They want Israel to stop and meekly submit - NBL I would think.

I’d curse but….sensitive eyes….
 
China and Iran have ties and they can bring more pressure to bear on Iran than the US can.

China has also noted it’s really not gotten them anywhere. Iran is diametrically opposed to China (and vice versa) from a religious standpoint). Iran hates China just a bit less than they hate us. China replaced Russia as lesser Satan a decade ago, and the only reason China supplies them equipment is to stick a thumb in our eye. But China isn’t of any illusions that it buys them good will.
 
It’s the issue Israel is conducting operations period. They want Israel to stop and meekly submit - NBL I would think.

I’d curse but….sensitive eyes….
In past wars Isreal has pretty much stopped when UN demands, today I think not so much. Thet are going to end this particular problem once and for all. Hmm maybe the folks in Lebanon might wake up, if not might become painful both at home and in Syria, Iran and other locales.
 
In past wars Isreal has pretty much stopped when UN demands, today I think not so much. Thet are going to end this particular problem once and for all. Hmm maybe the folks in Lebanon might wake up, if not might become painful both at home and in Syria, Iran and other locales.
Benny’s Paving Company can’t wait to visit…
 
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