A Leaky Sieve: Retention in the ADF

[Humphrey Bogart]

a) Don't read the posters then?

b) Read my substitutions above. Does that seem appropriate? I'm not talking about the "sprained ankle" stuff but the chronic stuff.

I mean, he isn't wrong. It truly is overwhelming how much the CAF talks about "health". I only noticed it now that I don't work in the environment anymore.

 

[QV]

My younger soldier self would have appreciated to hear more about the principles of marksmanship than being inundated with all this other stuff.

 

[stoker dave]

Beasting people on basic training is dumb.

There was a significant amount of bullying that went on for first year cadets at the military colleges. Does anyone know if that environment has been tamed?

 

[CBH99]

I think the biggest issues were and may still be PAT platoon, so many members were stuck in the system not being trained. Being treated like crap leaves a bad thought about what the Military is and isn't. The leaders saying well they are being paid so tough crap for them.
A person signs up to be trained. They take a initial posting to the training center/ Borden expecting to be sent for training asap. Instead some at the time I was in took 2-3 years before being trades trained. I would have told them train me or let me go. Leadership did not care one bit. In many cases they looked at PAT Platoon as a problem child full of drunken out of control members. When in fact it was full of bored out of their mind tired of menial task, thinking what's the worse that could happen.

Fix the training program, that might mean our current Military needs to park the Navy Fleet, shut down flying ops and bring home our Army for a year or two. Have the current members billeted to training units and get training the new men and women, get caught up on their own training and get our equipment sorted out. At the end of two years we either sink or swim so to speak.

So…I genuinely hate to say this - but we did that already.

Once combat operations ended in Afghanistan in 2011 for us, we announced a 2 year hiatus of new operations to reconstitute.

And a few months back, the CDS announced something similar - only to have the MND announce an increase in operations the same week.


I’m not saying it isn’t a good idea. Heck even right now, we’re supposed to be taking some time to ‘reconstitute’ - so you aren’t the only one thinking we need to hit the breaks & reconsolidate.


Not sure how well we are doing that though…

The navy hasn’t slowed down, and with the deployment of 2 MCDV’s to Haiti, doesn’t look like they will be.

The Air Force hasn’t slowed down with alien balloons, providing airlift for cargo going into Ukraine, the LRP fleet constantly busy, SAR working full time workout any extra airframes to accommodate any being down for maintenance, air dets being readied for deployment on ships, etc

And the Army now has deployments to the UK & Poland in support of training Ukrainian forces (albeit I think we did shrink our contribution to OP IMPACT?)


And OP LENTUS hasn’t even started yet…

 

[mariomike]

I understand this is an ADF thread, but I read an interesting article from five months ago explaining the U.S. military did not have a retention problem, although it did face a recruiting slump.

So, it may have some relevance on the general subject of retention in the ADF and CAF .

The Army is Having No Issue Retaining Soldiers, Amid a Crisis Recruiting New Ones

The service has surpassed more than 100% of its retention goals every year since 2017, including new numbers for 2022,

www.military.com

 

[Remius]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/hantsport-coach-fired-before-playoff-game-brandon-macinnis-1.6758003

So since we talked about “beastings on BMQ” here is an interesting story…

The coach made the kids to physical activity as a consequence of their actions. He was let go. Why is that seen as a bad thing?

When I was on course way back when we were given push ups or something else to help us correct our shortfalls. It had the desired effect but more importantly it got us in better shape physically and outside the scheduled PT sessions which likely were not enough to maintain ourselves.

I’m not sure why people think that being given a physical activity is a punishment when it has benefits. I’m not advocating torture or corporal punishment but it seems to me that applied correctly, it should not be viewed in a bad light at all.

 

[Quirky]

The coach made the kids to physical activity as a consequence of their actions. He was let go. Why is that seen as a bad thing?

What if he made them do puzzles and mind games instead?

I can't count how many times our minor/junior hockey coaches made us skate lines before and after practice if we were in a losing slump. Kids hated it, but it was also awesome for cardio and you could tell who was behind on conditioning. Parents encouraged it.

 

[Furniture]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/hantsport-coach-fired-before-playoff-game-brandon-macinnis-1.6758003

So since we talked about “beastings on BMQ” here is an interesting story…

The coach made the kids to physical activity as a consequence of their actions. He was let go. Why is that seen as a bad thing?

When I was on course way back when we were given push ups or something else to help us correct our shortfalls. It had the desired effect but more importantly it got us in better shape physically and outside the scheduled PT sessions which likely were not enough to maintain ourselves.

I’m not sure why people think that being given a physical activity is a punishment when it has benefits. I’m not advocating torture or corporal punishment but it seems to me that applied correctly, it should not be viewed in a bad light at all.

That sort of "extra training" was ended because a few people abused it. We send the wrong people to recruit school, and end up with recruits being abused by staff who aren't suited to the role.

 

[btrudy]

We have recruits with a history of depression and cutting themselves when they are stressed joining. I don't think that's a good thing. It looks like we're accepting people that head right to the medical system.

I also think normalizing mental health issues can have an averse effect where it leads to young people wanting to have them to fit in.

It's not something to be embarassed about and it's good to identify it and deal with it. At least half of the kids in my kids school classroom believe they have ADHD or some kind of mental health issue. Then again maybe they do and our society is just a lot sicker than we've realized for years.

Particularly in regards to ADHD and various anxiety disorders, it absolutely is that things were just unrecognized and people were just stuck trying to deal with it on their own, without any diagnosis or adequate medical guidance to help them. It's estimated that even now about 75% of adults with ADHD aren't diagnosed as such, and ~half of those with some kind of anxiety disorder.

And that's today, with current standards of mental health support (which is still shit, but far better than even a decade ago).

Frankly, I'm f*&king sick of all this mental health talk. I can't walk into one CAF building without seeing a "get help" poster with dozens of phone numbers to call, or have some type of mental health speech during our unit briefs. Cut the shit already. Make it a once a year refresher like Cold weather and move on with life. I some times get the feeling they WANT people to seek mental help for every little emotion a person has.

I'm really glad you're a veteran. Grade A example of exactly the type of culture we're trying to change.

 

[dimsum]

I understand this is an ADF thread, but I read an interesting article from five months ago explaining the U.S. military did not have a retention problem, although it did face a recruiting slump.

So, it may have some relevance on the general subject of retention in the ADF and CAF .

The Army is Having No Issue Retaining Soldiers, Amid a Crisis Recruiting New Ones

The service has surpassed more than 100% of its retention goals every year since 2017, including new numbers for 2022,

www.military.com

I don't think that the US military is really equivalent. Can't remember where I read it but the USMC, for example, expects to turn over 3/4 of their folks after the first enlistment period.

The US Army has about 480,000 soldiers. If the retention goal is 60,000, that's only 12.5% I may be reading the numbers wrong but 12.5% seems awfully low for the US Army (and especially for the CAF).

Also, don't forget that the US military also provides healthcare and dental care, which is not guaranteed in the US civilian sector. That alone may keep people in whereas it's less of a factor in the CAF or ADF.

 

[Rd651]

Recruits in 2023 aren't being beasted on their basic training in Canada.

Some things that are happening though are:
1. An over abundance of people claiming mental health issues joining the CAF. [1]
2. People passing basic, then requiring accomodations and MELs shortly after for mental health issues.
3. People who fail portions of basic training (gas hut, ranges, field time) still passing.

Beasting people on basic training is dumb.

When we don't make recruits tired, uncomfortable, stressed, cold, hungry, sore, hurting during their basic training we suffer for it afterwards.

Sometimes resiliency training isn't closing your eyes and doing box breathing or picturing 5 things you can see and 4 things you can smell etc..
Sometimes resiliency training IS getting woken up at 4am to do PT in the rain, missing a meal, and not getting to call home for a week.



[1]according to autobiographies, medical staff, and comments people make about themselves on social media and forums.

Great Post! 100% agree, it's the truth!

 

[btrudy]

I don't think that the US military is really equivalent. Can't remember where I read it but the USMC, for example, expects to turn over 3/4 of their folks after the first enlistment period.

The US Army has about 480,000 soldiers. If the retention goal is 60,000, that's only 12.5% I may be reading the numbers wrong but 12.5% seems awfully low for the US Army (and especially for the CAF).

Also, don't forget that the US military also provides healthcare and dental care, which is not guaranteed in the US civilian sector. That alone may keep people in whereas it's less of a factor in the CAF or ADF.

Yeah, there's a myriad of differences between America and Canada that make this an apples to oranges comparison at best. The GI bill alone encourages a lot of short term churn. Of relying on a lot of people doing very short term contracts is something that only works if you're actually able to get people trained up in a reasonable period of time. Which of course we've proven to be largely very shitty at. A lot of folks on 3 and 4 year contracts ain't all that helpful if 2 of those years were on PAT platoon and another year total actually spent training.

ADF is a far better comparison to our situation.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'm really glad you're a veteran. Grade A example of exactly the type of culture we're trying to change.

I don't agree with his post but the amount some places put it out does seem a mile wide and an inch deep. I have a habit of calling the numbers on those posters or in the emails we push out to see if they work and to see how useful they actually are. (Yes I'm a lot of fun at parties).

I found quite a few numbers are old and don't work. The last one I checked was about sexual assault and it lead to a home insurance company that was closed for business. Others are very unhelpful and don't apply because of this or that. They tell you to call other people.

In my experience and having discussions on related courses people aren't very inclined to use these numbers anyways. They want to talk to someone in person. Another reason for a padre at units. Bringing the UMS back to units with medics who get some mental health training would be an asset too.

 

[Remius]

I don't agree with his post but the amount some places put it out does seem a mile wide and an inch deep. I have a habit of calling the numbers on those posters or in the emails we push out to see if they work and to see how useful they actually are. (Yes I'm a lot of fun at parties).

I found quite a few numbers are old and don't work. The last one I checked was about sexual assault and it lead to a home insurance company that was closed for business. Others are very unhelpful and don't apply because of this or that. They tell you to call other people.

In my experience and having discussions on related courses people aren't very inclined to use these numbers anyways. They want to talk to someone in person. Another reason for a padre at units. Bringing the UMS back to units with medics who get some mental health training would be an asset too.

The R2MR app has up to date contact details and the number to CFMAP and uses your location to find the nearest available Mental and medical resources as well.

In support of what you are saying, the internet, apps etc are likely more effective than a wall poster people pay no attention to or doesn’t get updated.

 

[Furniture]

I don't agree with his post but the amount some places put it out does seem a mile wide and an inch deep. I have a habit of calling the numbers on those posters or in the emails we push out to see if they work and to see how useful they actually are. (Yes I'm a lot of fun at parties).

I found quite a few numbers are old and don't work. The last one I checked was about sexual assault and it lead to a home insurance company that was closed for business. Others are very unhelpful and don't apply because of this or that. They tell you to call other people.

In my experience and having discussions on related courses people aren't very inclined to use these numbers anyways. They want to talk to someone in person. Another reason for a padre at units. Bringing the UMS back to units with medics who get some mental health training would be an asset too.

In Ottawa the wait times for mental health if you're not in crisis is about a year... So we tell people to get help, then tell them to wait while things get worse.

I totally agree with your last para as well, people want to talk to a human, not talk on the phone/Teams/Skype.

 

[Quirky]

I'm really glad you're a veteran. Grade A example of exactly the type of culture we're trying to change.

Who says I'm a veteran? The only culture change I've seen is the growing line-up at the mental health clinics, but that's just representative of Canadians who are increasingly dependent on happy pills to get them through their "hard", entitled lives. Being raised in poverty and in a country that was always at war changes your perspective on just how easy Canadians have it. Zero sympathy from me when someone runs to mental health because they can't cope with multi-tasking in a pressure environment. This just tells me aviation isn't for them and to seek another, easier line of work.

 

[btrudy]

Who says I'm a veteran?

Ahhh right my bad, saw the "Army.ca veteran" and for some reason my sleep addled brain conflated that with your actual employment status.

The only culture change I've seen is the growing line-up at the mental health clinics, but that's just representative of Canadians who are increasingly dependent on happy pills to get them through their "hard", entitled lives. Being raised in poverty and in a country that was always at war changes your perspective on just how easy Canadians have it. Zero sympathy from me when someone runs to mental health because they can't cope with multi-tasking in a pressure environment. This just tells me aviation isn't for them and to seek another, easier line of work.

I'll be frank, a complete inability to have any compassion or sympathy for the issues that may be plaguing your subordinates & peers, just because you might have had it hard growing up and didn't develop mental illness (or did but never had it diagnosed), is not a sign of a good leader. Rather the opposite.

This is exactly the type of culture we're trying to change.

 

[Quirky]

I'll be frank, a complete inability to have any compassion or sympathy for the issues that may be plaguing your subordinates & peers, just because you might have had it hard growing up and didn't develop mental illness (or did but never had it diagnosed), is not a sign of a good leader. Rather the opposite.

I give very simple orders, how my subs perceive those simple orders is up to them. 50% of them are able to put their head down and do their jobs, like I did when I was in their shoes. The other half have varying degrees of mental breakdowns because of all the distractions, which they have zero control over, that keep them from completing basic trade related tasks. The problem with the CAF in many regards are the negative attitudes from the 50% who can't cope and infect the strong workers, who also have to pick up the slack for the poor performers. They run off to mental health get their insane VAC payout from emotional feelings and parade it around the units like it's some trophy.

I agree we need culture change in the CAF, we need a better mechanism to release (fire) poor performers quicker before they drag down the moral of units.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I give very simple orders, how my subs perceive those simple orders is up to them.

No. How orders are perceived is 100% on leaders. As leaders, we have to make sure the order and intent is well understood by all affected. If it means repeating, rewording, or clarifying, that’s up to you to make sure your subordinates understand what you’re trying to communicate. What you want to say may not be the same thing as what you say and may not be the same as what someone hears or what someone understands.

 

[dimsum]

I give very simple orders, how my subs perceive those simple orders is up to them.

What is simple to you and what is simple to them can be very different.

From previous experience, you may assume that doing X means including doing Y and Z, but your subs may not know that. Also, the 50% who "put their heads down" may be privately asking each other wtf you're asking them to do, but not able (or willing) to ask you in person.

To (probably over-state) one of General Colin Powell's quotes: "Leadership is solving problems. The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them."