Premier Ford To Use "Notwithstanding" Against Education Staff- split fromFreedom Convoy Protests

[Brad Sallows]

That basically sounds like you’re saying that infringements of rights in the present are acceptable in hopes that they become so profound that the system is dismantled in future?

Yes. With lemons, make lemonade. The ends and the intent outweigh the means. There is the way things are, and the way I would prefer them to be. People rarely improve things without being pressured to do so.

I know the absolute positions create problems, which would then have to be worked through. For example, "freedom of association" works just fine if the right to organize (associate) exists without a bunch of special powers attached to it.

 

[YZT580]

Or at least enforceable. We shall see in coming days and weeks whether the government thinks it can enforce this particular rule, and if so, whether the body politic is willing to go along with that.

My personal opinion, if 55,000 people decide to defy the illegality of a strike, I’m at a loss as to what enforcement mechanisms would be effective in solving the underlying problem. An enforcement focus basically means that the state will double down on the coercion. That’s a relatively linear path where the choices quickly narrow to withdrawal or further escalation, with few branches to other options. Will they try to enforce against individuals striking (eg fines)? Some unions are already saying the strikers won’t eat the cost, unions will cover it. Will they try to go after the union itself? That would quickly further inflame the ire of more of organized labour.

The social context is interesting. For the past couple years, the working class have arguably been becoming more conscious of their rights, of how they ought to be treated, and of collective action. Society has been so shaken up in the past couple years that there are a ton of fractures and divides. There’s a lot of distrust and disdain towards government at all levels. Here we have a conservative government (hardly beloved by the more activist demographics) going after workers that a lot of normal people can sympathize with. This isn’t the cops or firefighters or other high income professionals. Janitors, librarians, early childhood educators… These are relatively sympathetic individuals that are on the shit end of this stick, and the state’s trying to clawback essential labour rights. I really really hope the province takes a deep breath, sucks back, reassesses, and comes back to the table in good faith before this brews up further.

Ronald Regan fired what every ATC type that wouldn't report in with 2 days and lived with the economic fallout from that. Don't agree with Ford's actions but I also don't agree with using kids as pawns in a labour dispute.

 

[Kat Stevens]

JOKE ALERT!
Maybe we could start by freezing the union and it's members bank accounts? Seems a pretty effective way to crush dissent.

JOKE ALERT ENDS!

 

[Kilted]

Or at least enforceable. We shall see in coming days and weeks whether the government thinks it can enforce this particular rule, and if so, whether the body politic is willing to go along with that.

My personal opinion, if 55,000 people decide to defy the illegality of a strike, I’m at a loss as to what enforcement mechanisms would be effective in solving the underlying problem. An enforcement focus basically means that the state will double down on the coercion. That’s a relatively linear path where the choices quickly narrow to withdrawal or further escalation, with few branches to other options. Will they try to enforce against individuals striking (eg fines)? Some unions are already saying the strikers won’t eat the cost, unions will cover it. Will they try to go after the union itself? That would quickly further inflame the ire of more of organized labour.

The social context is interesting. For the past couple years, the working class have arguably been becoming more conscious of their rights, of how they ought to be treated, and of collective action. Society has been so shaken up in the past couple years that there are a ton of fractures and divides. There’s a lot of distrust and disdain towards government at all levels. Here we have a conservative government (hardly beloved by the more activist demographics) going after workers that a lot of normal people can sympathize with. This isn’t the cops or firefighters or other high income professionals. Janitors, librarians, early childhood educators… These are relatively sympathetic individuals that are on the shit end of this stick, and the state’s trying to clawback essential labour rights. I really really hope the province takes a deep breath, sucks back, reassesses, and comes back to the table in good faith before this brews up further.

Well, at the end of the day it is an illegal strike, regardless of what their union tells them, each individual worker has the choice to show up to work or not. It's a similar concept to not obeying unlawful orders, although with a different set of consequences.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Ignore? No, they definitely aren’t ignoring it. It’s one of those cases where an unjust law faces so much pushback that the solution will likely have to be political, not enforcement.

Gun owners take note

 

[Eaglelord17]

They passed the bill to make any strike action illegal, and they're striking anyways. I guess this is another one of those ignore people breaking the law things?

The law only has power if people are following it and you have the means to force those that don't into compliance. Works just fine for the occasional criminal, thieve, murderer, etc. Much harder to deal with when its mass resistance, look at Iran as a easy example today.

Ronald Regan fired what every ATC type that wouldn't report in with 2 days and lived with the economic fallout from that. Don't agree with Ford's actions but I also don't agree with using kids as pawns in a labour dispute.

How are they using kids as pawns? The schools can run with or without them, some are choosing to close but that is a decision being made by the school itself not because they physically cannot run.

 

[Furniture]

Matt and Jen from The Line more eloquently say what I have been trying to say for the last couple of days.

TL/DR: 1. Union came out too strong. 2. Times are tough everywhere. 3. It's bad timing for the union, the workers really do deserve more. 4. There might me more people on Ford's side than people want to admit.

 

[Eaglelord17]

So reading a CBC article at the end it had this quote ‘The union said it cut its wage proposal by more than half in a counter-offer it gave the government Tuesday night and made "substantial" moves in other areas as well. However, the government said it would not negotiate unless CUPE cancelled the strike.’

So again standard negotations, that brings them down to around 6% which is around that 5-8% range I was talking about.

For those that think big evil union strikes to screw kids, just remember most these workers cannot afford to strike long due to how low their income is in the first place. These aren’t teachers and strike pay means nothing.

 

[mariomike]

My wife left nursing years ago for another career. She went to the IT world and never looked back and is thankful she isn’t a nurse any more.

My ex has found nursing to be a very satisfying career. Now chief nursing executive at a major hospital. Met her on the job. Worked her way up through the ranks - and still loves being a nurse. YMMV

I don't think you can be happy in education or nursing if your heart is not in it.

I still have ( mostly ) good memories of my school days. Lots of respect for teachers.

​

 

[brihard]

So reading a CBC article at the end it had this quote ‘The union said it cut its wage proposal by more than half in a counter-offer it gave the government Tuesday night and made "substantial" moves in other areas as well. However, the government said it would not negotiate unless CUPE cancelled the strike.’

So again standard negotations, that brings them down to around 6% which is around that 5-8% range I was talking about.

For those that think big evil union strikes to screw kids, just remember most these workers cannot afford to strike long due to how low their income is in the first place. These aren’t teachers and strike pay means nothing.

So they’re down to negotiating a wage increase that will likely come in still below inflation, yet the government so far seems poised to stay the course on the NWC to suppress labour rights. Cool cool cool.

 

[Jarnhamar]

An 11% pay increase sounds like a lot but for a $40k a year job that's $4400. Half that goes to income taxes and people are taxed on anything else they buy with it. It's amazing how we need to fight for scraps.

I have a family member that makes around that salary assisting with special needs kids. Punched, kicked, bitten, screamed at daily. And dealing with parents bullshit. I wouldn't do that job for $100k a year.

There's money, Ontario just spends it on stupid shit. This design cost the yearly salary of 16 of these employees.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

An 11% pay increase sounds like a lot but for a $40k a year job that's $4400. Half that goes to income taxes and people are taxed on anything else they buy with it. It's amazing how we need to fight for scraps.

I have a family member that makes around that salary assisting with special needs kids. Punched, kicked, bitten, screamed at daily. And dealing with parents bullshit. I wouldn't do that job for $100k a year.

There's money, Ontario just spends it on stupid shit. This design cost the yearly salary of 16 of these employees.

View attachment 74678

Like I say, polls, designs and 'studies' are the new money laundering...

 

[Brad Sallows]

There's money, Ontario just spends it on stupid shit.

There's money, government just spends it on all kinds of things. Lower taxes, new or increased transfers to individuals, flashy infrastructure, compensation increases above CoL, cash dumps on people with grievances ...

There's very little on any list I could produce that met with a lot of objection from voters when it was introduced.

People criticize Brexiters for putting politics above economics, but that is essentially what Canadian voters did when they chose Trudeau over Harper. There was no mystery about their respective attitudes to fiscal matters.

 

[brihard]

An 11% pay increase sounds like a lot but for a $40k a year job that's $4400. Half that goes to income taxes and people are taxed on anything else they buy with it. It's amazing how we need to fight for scraps.

I have a family member that makes around that salary assisting with special needs kids. Punched, kicked, bitten, screamed at daily. And dealing with parents bullshit. I wouldn't do that job for $100k a year.

There's money, Ontario just spends it on stupid shit. This design cost the yearly salary of 16 of these employees.

View attachment 74678

Remember when they eliminated our license plate fees and sent us all reimbursements just before the election? That bribe to the voters costs the province 1.1 billion a year. They could have dropped our license plate fees by three quarters, and met the salary requests of the education support workers.

 

[mariomike]

The Toronto firefighter and paramedic unions had this to say,

QUOTE

In modern history, unions have been the only effective voice working people have ever had. Workers have fought long and hard, sacrificing personal freedoms, in order to provide fundamental rights and conditions for workers right across this country.

Firefighters are not strangers to the ideals of sacrifice for others. We willingly undergo harsh conditions and hardships to help our fellow citizens. And it is crucial for us to stand up for others in any circumstance.

Toronto’s Professional Firefighters believe strongly in the due processes that have been fought for and won by generations before ours.The right to freely negotiate, and to undertake arbitration to achieve fair and equitable decisions is unalienable,and SHOULD be unassailable.

That is why we stand shoulder2shoulder with all of our union sisters and brothers and condemn Bill 28 in its attempt to circumvent the processes that have long been in place. Our job is to protect those that cannot protect themselves, and to work together for the greater good.

Martin Luther King once said, ‘History is a great teacher. Now everyone knows that the labour movement did not diminish the strength of the nation, but enlarged it.

By raising the living standards of millions, labour miraculously created a market for industry and lifted the whole nation to undreamed of levels of production. Those who attack labour forget these simple truths, but history remembers them”

Respect for the process of unions is an unassailable and hard fought right that is crucial to the overall progress of our society. Local 3888 will not stand by and watch that process be disregarded.

We stand in solidarity with CUPE OSBCU - CSCSO Education workers! The crucial work our Sisters, Siblings and Brothers do every day with compassion, strength and love can no longer be taken for granted. Workers Rights are Human Rights.

END QUOTE

 

[YZT580]

Remember when they eliminated our license plate fees and sent us all reimbursements just before the election? That bribe to the voters costs the province 1.1 billion a year. They could have dropped our license plate fees by three quarters, and met the salary requests of the education support workers.

The majority of the support workers make a great deal more than 39000 per annum. Also, whilst there are many part-time types, the majority are full time with full benefits. As is normal, the union quotes the worst case in their press releases. And I for one was greatly appreciative of that rebate check after Trudeau socked it to me with his carbon tax. I don't mind admitting that I can be bought.

 

[brihard]

The majority of the support workers make a great deal more than 39000 per annum. Also, whilst there are many part-time types, the majority are full time with full benefits. As is normal, the union quotes the worst case in their press releases. And I for one was greatly appreciative of that rebate check after Trudeau socked it to me with his carbon tax. I don't mind admitting that I can be bought.

The $39k has been quoted as an average (a mean, specifically). If you have different figures you can quote and source for this specific bargaining unit, please by all means I’m interested to see them. I have yet to see the government side “well, actually…” that aspect of this, and it seems likely that they either directly or, through sympathetic media proxies, would have. But I’m open to looking at any facts presented so long as they can be shown to be credible.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The Toronto firefighter and paramedic unions had this to say,

QUOTE
Firefighters are not strangers to the ideals of sacrifice for others. We willingly undergo harsh conditions and hardships to help our fellow citizens. And it is crucial for us to stand up for others in any circumstance.

Not to make this about us but

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Right behind pilot....

 

[PuckChaser]

If any CUPE employees want to give up their $27 per hour (average) and excellent benefit jobs, I know a ton of folks making minimum wage that would jump at the chance to get on that gravy train.