New Dress Regs 🤣

[mariomike]

There is a saying....empty barrels make the loudest noise.

Ironically, the saying is empty barrels make the most noise.

Written both ways.

"empty barrels make the loudest noise" - Google Search

 

[Jarnhamar]

Written both ways.

"empty barrels make the loudest noise" - Google Search

Fake news.

 

[FSTO]

I supported the Officer Training School at CFB Chilliwack, there was minimal yelling in the field and on task, but there was a lot of pressure on them to perform. Tack on very full days for the candidates, that is what cracked many of them, time pressure and not yelling.

I was a Officer Recruit there in 89. Don't really remember any yelling at all, but a lot of timings to be met with little to no deviation.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I was a Officer Recruit there in 89. Don't really remember any yelling at all, but a lot of timings to be met with little to no deviation.

No, putting the screws to them was my job as enemy force section commander in Chilcotin for their Phase whatever training. Gooood tiiimes.

 

[kev994]

People that are attracted to military life aren't usually the ones too fussed about face tats and purple hair. The dress regs could have been updated, but doing it to this extent is just theatre and will probably cause more problems than it solves.

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[SupersonicMax]

People that are attracted to military life aren't usually the ones too fussed about face tats and purple hair. The dress regs could have been updated, but doing it to this extent is just theatre and will probably cause more problems than it solves.

Good. They should then not be too fussed about what others sport in terms of face tats and purple hair.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The doughnut.

 

[FSTO]

No, putting the screws to them was my job as enemy force section commander in Chilcotin for their Phase whatever training. Gooood tiiimes.

Our platoon must have hid really well. Never got attacked once!!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I don't know why people think yelling is the most effective way to put pressure on folks; usually you can do it a lot more effectively by being calm but having deadlines, concurrent requirements, large amounts of info being thrown at you etc. My days at basic are almost 18 years ago, and that's what they did then, so I think a lot of the BS comes from movies vice reality.

After a while, it loses it's effectiveness anyway. If you respect the person you work for/with, really no worse feeling than dropping the ball and disappointing them, and that's way more motivating than volume.

And sometimes yelling is very effective at accomplishing the goal of pushing trainees to the limit and seeing what breaks.

Fighting withdrawal out of a defensive position, covering Arty fire about to come in, someone can’t get their collective shit together. Yelling can be very appropriate.

Cruising along in an AFV, CC saying “driver prepare to halt” and yelling “HALT!” over ICS requires 2 different reactions.

People advocating “yelling is never appropriate”
are as far off target as those who yell all the time.

 

[OldSolduer]

And sometimes yelling is very effective at accomplishing the goal of pushing trainees to the limit and seeing what breaks.

Fighting withdrawal out of a defensive position, covering Arty fire about to come in, someone can’t get their collective shit together. Yelling can be very appropriate.

Cruising along in an AFV, CC saying “driver prepare to halt” and yelling “HALT!” over ICS requires 2 different reactions.

People advocating “yelling is never appropriate”
are as far off target as those who yell all the time.

Try being polite and NOT yell when drill - I know some of you are going to hate this - is being conducted improperly and the troops need a good session of counselling.
We had an RSM in 2VP that told the Escort to the Colours they couldn't escort a fucking hot dog stand. The drill improved noticeably.

 

[btrudy]

That's called stress inoculation. You're conditioning people to be able to think, respond, and act when they're scared, intimidated, and confused.

Giving people impossible tasks to complete teaches them the military won't always be fair, and how to fail without turning into a blubbering mess.

Yes, I get that inducing stress to see how people react is needed. What isn't needed is being a dick about it all the time. When the example that you set from the get-go is that the primary method used to "lead" people is by yelling and otherwise forming an toxic workplace environment, you're teaching them from the start that that's how they should be leading people too. And then they go forth, and spend their career making people around them miserable, because that's what you taught them to do.

Yelling has its place, but should be used very very sparingly.

And after almost a year, still radio silence from RCN safety reminding COs that anyone wearing an SCBA has to be clean shaven. At this point will be sitting back with popcorn on 6 Sept to see if this gets escalated right to the MND if the RCN decides to not follow CAF policy/Canadian OSHA requirements.

Honestly, I still don't know why you're under the impression this is an issue. The dress instructions update doesn't in any way supercede or overwrite existing policy implemented for safety reasons, and instead very clearly and explicitly outlines that safety is a great reason to impose such restrictions, specifically mentioning the respiratory health policy as an example of such.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Yes, I get that inducing stress to see how people react is needed. What isn't needed is being a dick about it all the time. When the example that you set from the get-go is that the primary method used to "lead" people is by yelling and otherwise forming an toxic workplace environment, you're teaching them from the start that that's how they should be leading people too. And then they go forth, and spend their career making people around them miserable, because that's what you taught them to do.

You're changing the story a bit here. You initially said:

When we start them out in an environment which defaults to yelling any time there is a "screw up" (and let's face it, quite a lot of the time said screw up is merely a failure to meet a purposefully set unattainable goal), that sets the standard from the get go for what is considered good leadership, leading to a whole lot of toxicity down the line.

There's a difference between yelling when there is a screw up and yelling all the time.

Should we really insult all CAF recruits and presume they'll spend the rest of their career mimicking any poor leadership habits they observed in basic training? I haven't. I assume you haven't either, have you?

Most trade schools ramp down the yelling and inspections once students graduate basic training. Even things for infantry privates ramp down when they get to their battalions.

This almost feels like one of those "everyone over the rank of corporal is terrible" things.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Honestly, I still don't know why you're under the impression this is an issue. The dress instructions update doesn't in any way supercede or overwrite existing policy implemented for safety reasons, and instead very clearly and explicitly outlines that safety is a great reason to impose such restrictions, specifically mentioning the respiratory health policy as an example of such.

Because existing RCN orders already don't follow the safety policy or even have them as a reference.

A big chunk of the RCN operational side that makes these decisions has no idea what the safety rules are, and don't listen to either the fire marshall or the their own fire safety experts.

So it's really hard to expect COs, Fleet Commanders etc to follow direction they don't know exist, and the entire reason there is a safety org is to pass that on.

It's almost like we took fire fighters off the ships, then got rid of hull techs, and are left with a big knowledge/expertise gap or something.

 

[ArmyRick]

Yes, I get that inducing stress to see how people react is needed. What isn't needed is being a dick about it all the time. When the example that you set from the get-go is that the primary method used to "lead" people is by yelling and otherwise forming an toxic workplace environment, you're teaching them from the start that that's how they should be leading people too. And then they go forth, and spend their career making people around them miserable, because that's what you taught them to do.

Yelling has its place, but should be used very very sparingly.



Honestly, I still don't know why you're under the impression this is an issue. The dress instructions update doesn't in any way supercede or overwrite existing policy implemented for safety reasons, and instead very clearly and explicitly outlines that safety is a great reason to impose such restrictions, specifically mentioning the respiratory health policy as an example of such.

I am very curious. What is it you do in the Forces?

 

[FSTO]

What is it you do in the Forces?

?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I am very curious. What is it you do in the Forces?

I would honestly like to know as well. It would help establish credibility and also give some perspective to some of your other points and positions with this matter.

 

[KevinB]

I am very curious. What is it you do in the Forces?

I’m betting RCA Band…

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I’m betting RCA Band…

But then, wouldn't he/she/they be used to yelling? After all, the Band Conductor has to be heard over the noise of the guns.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

With the direction this thread is taking, I couldn't resist:

 

[OldSolduer]

With the direction this thread is taking, I couldn't resist:

Awesome