What can a CO make you pay for

[jason09]

I am on course and in the school orders it says the course has to do a project where we buy something for the school or buy materials and upgrade the school in some way. It says that the course will pay for the project. I own mess kit and have attended mess dinners, I get they can make you pay for that. But what are they actually allowed to force you to pay for besides mess dinners and mess kit?

If anyone knows any reference that I could read to better understand the scope of what I can be ordered to pay for, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I am on course and in the school orders it says the course has to do a project where we buy something for the school or buy materials and upgrade the school in some way. It says that the course will pay for the project. I own mess kit and have attended mess dinners, I get they can make you pay for that. But what are they actually allowed to force you to pay for besides mess dinners and mess kit?

If anyone knows any reference that I could read to better understand the scope of what I can be ordered to pay for, it would be greatly appreciated.

Huh?

 

[jason09]

Huh?

What part is huh? I am confused as to why I have to give money back to the military, usually things like this are funded by the squadron and you sacrifice additional time to do a project or something. But this says that I have to pay for it and put the time in...which makes no sense

 

[Jarnhamar]

You're a serving member and you've attended mess dinners in mess kit?

 

[jason09]

You're a serving member and you've attended mess dinners in mess kit?

That is correct, Reg Force

 

[Furniture]

I'm assuming this is some tradition, where each course "upgrades" the student lounge/barracks lounge in some way?

I'm pretty sure you can't be ordered to do it, but is it a hill worth dying on?

 

[jason09]

I'm assuming this is some tradition, where each course "upgrades" the student lounge/barracks lounge in some way?

I'm pretty sure you can't be ordered to do it, but is it a hill worth dying on?

You are absolutely correct. Thank you for phrasing it better than I.

Unfortunately it is... I'm very particular about my finances/investments, and I don't feel comfortable allowing the military to tell me how to spend my money. Some will say , it's just $xx amount who cares, but I don't think that's a good justification for that. And if so then where is the line drawn?

 

[Furniture]

You are absolutely correct. Thank you for phrasing it better than I.

Unfortunately it is... I'm very particular about my finances/investments, and I don't feel comfortable allowing the military to tell me how to spend my money. Some will say , it's just $xx amount who cares, but I don't think that's a good justification for that. And if so then where is the line drawn?

You likely have legal grounds to fight it, but be aware that going against the grain always has consequences. In a small trade, sometimes not being known as "that guy" is worth more than a few dollars.

I'm not suggesting it's right or fair, but as someone from a small trade I can assure you it is a reality.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

If I was doing it all over again.....

As an exchange Officer in a British unit, my mess bill was 150 GBP every month, before I attended a function or signed a chit. For the privilege of being an officer. They also insisted that mess dress was for County Regiments. So I bought a more classic evening dress.

Back in Canada, as an OC, my CO insisted that I buy a sword, at a time I could not afford it. I have worn it 3 or 4 times (usually for CofCs - usually mine)

As a CO, I did not insist on a single outlay of cash, by anyone. I encouraged officers to purchase Mess Dress, but did not make it mandatory.

Like WTAF?

Times have changed. People need to take their dull programmed heads out of there tight asses.

 

[dimsum]

If I was doing it all over again.....

As an exchange Officer in a British unit, my mess bill was 150 GBP every month, before I attended a function or signed a chit. For the privilege of being an officer. They also insisted that mess dress was for County Regiments. So I bought a more classic evening dress.

I’m confused - the insisted that you buy Canadian Army evening dress? Or the Brit regimental evening dress?

Back in Canada, as an OC, my CO insisted that I buy a sword, at a time I could not afford it. I have worn it 3 or 4 times (usually for CofCs - usually mine)

As a CO, I did not insist on a single outlay of cash, by anyone. I encouraged officers to purchase Mess Dress, but did not make it mandatory.

Like WTAF?

Times have changed. People need to take their dull programmed heads out of there tight asses.

Good. The whole “all officers must have Mess Dress within 6 months of commissioning” is stupid because some folks may not be through the training system at that point, and if they fail training, there is no guarantee you would stay in your DEU.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

You are absolutely correct. Thank you for phrasing it better than I.

Unfortunately it is... I'm very particular about my finances/investments, and I don't feel comfortable allowing the military to tell me how to spend my money. Some will say , it's just $xx amount who cares, but I don't think that's a good justification for that. And if so then where is the line drawn?

It is difficult to know how to answer your question. As a student Navigator, we willing spent our own money to leave the student lounge in better condition for follow on course serials and to leave a legacy of our course serial. No one ordered us to do it.

I don’t know where you are in the CAF you are, but nobody should be ordering you to spend your own money to build/donate something for your unit.

Whether it is worth fighting it is entirely your decision.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I’m confused - the insisted that you buy Canadian Army evening dress? Or the Brit regimental evening dress?

They asked that I not wear the Canadian (Military) Mess Dress that I had already purchased as a Subbie and wear a "proper " Black Tie like a real genteleman...so I had to buy a Tux

 

[FJAG]

They asked that I not wear the Canadian (Military) Mess Dress that I had already purchased as a Subbie and wear a "proper " Black Tie like a real genteleman...so I had to buy a Tux

Black Tie was a big deal at one time. Most of my early mess dinners were a mixture of Black Tie, old pre-1970s mess kit, the new (fuggly) green mess kit or S3 with bow tie. There was no one "ordering" us to buy the green mess kit and a lot of us held out buying it until the new scarlet kit came out and then jumped on board quickly.

 

[Happy Guy]

I thought everyone had to buy and wear mess kit - pre 1968. I never heard of having to buy a tux (black tie). Did that mean you had to buy both mess kit and a tux?

 

[dimsum]

I thought everyone had to buy and wear mess kit - pre 1968. I never heard of having to buy a tux (black tie). Did that mean you had to buy both mess kit and a tux?

Silver lining - you can wear a tux in civilian functions and/or when you’re not in the CAF anymore.

 

[FJAG]

I thought everyone had to buy and wear mess kit - pre 1968. I never heard of having to buy a tux (black tie). Did that mean you had to buy both mess kit and a tux?

I was a Militia OR 65-69 and commissioned RegF in 1970. At the time most serving officers were wearing the old style red mess kit and some had Black Tie. As cadets in 1969 we were issued battledress and TWs. In 1970 we were issued bolts of green cloth, $600 and told to see the tailor and have two uniforms made. We weren't allowed to have old mess kit made up and the new green (I think it was actually a midnight blue or something) was slow to make its way in as herds of staff officers in Ottawa argued about what it should look like. When the design finally came out we were "encouraged" but not "ordered" to get it or Black Tie. I expect experienced varied by unit.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I am on course and in the school orders it says the course has to do a project where we buy something for the school or buy materials and upgrade the school in some way. It says that the course will pay for the project. I own mess kit and have attended mess dinners, I get they can make you pay for that. But what are they actually allowed to force you to pay for besides mess dinners and mess kit?

If anyone knows any reference that I could read to better understand the scope of what I can be ordered to pay for, it would be greatly appreciated.

You are on a course?

Top tip: feck 'em all ... wait them out

 

[ModlrMike]

What are they going to do, charge the whole course? I'm sure LEGAD would love that one. RM? DMCA and/or grievance analyst might have something harsh to say on that.

Yep, wait them out. Needless to say, everyone needs to be on the same frequency.

 

[ueo]

I thought everyone had to buy and wear mess kit - pre 1968. I never heard of having to buy a tux (black tie). Did that mean you had to buy both mess kit and a tux?

1970- 3RCR Petawawa

 

[eliminator]

I was a Militia OR 65-69 and commissioned RegF in 1970. At the time most serving officers were wearing the old style red mess kit and some had Black Tie. As cadets in 1969 we were issued battledress and TWs. In 1970 we were issued bolts of green cloth, $600 and told to see the tailor and have two uniforms made. We weren't allowed to have old mess kit made up and the new green (I think it was actually a midnight blue or something) was slow to make its way in as herds of staff officers in Ottawa argued about what it should look like. When the design finally came out we were "encouraged" but not "ordered" to get it or Black Tie. I expect experienced varied by unit.

Yea, my understanding is that the 'unification' mess dress was 'midnight blue'. Later, when the army and navy folks transitioned to their traditional colours for mess dress, the air force found just inherited the midnight blue option as their own (close enough, eh?).

With the return of the traditional blue option, many RCAF members continue to wear the midnight blue option dress to this day ('grandfathered'). Personally, I like the midnight blue option as it's so dark, it almost looks like a black tux in low light.

Photo attached of midnight blue mess dress with army insignia.