UN Votes Against the US Moving Its Embassy to Jerusalem

[angus555]

I don't think anything about Trump is worthy of debate. Not many people are willing to intelligently stick up for him anyway, even in his own party.

But as for the UN vote, I think it's pretty futile, par for the course ^-^ for the UN.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I don't think anything about Trump is worthy of debate.

:turkey:

Just pretend that's a chicken emoji, since you're not willing to bring your TDS to the highlighted forum.





Given the number of voters in Canada that the Liberals would risk losing if they supported this is it any wonder we abstained.

 

[angus555]

:turkey:

Just pretend that's a chicken emoji, since you're not willing to bring your TDS to the highlighted forum.

Given the number of voters in Canada that the Liberals would risk losing if they supported this is it any wonder we abstained.

I don't think I have much to add to the "debate" :rofl:

I certainly don't want invest much more time having fun with this, I got more important things to worry about ATM.
I will say that history and hindsight does not portray blowhards and ideologues in the best light.

As for the Liberal voters going up in arms if Canada voted against, I don't think so. The Liberal voters are still too stoned to notice, still celebrating legalization.

But the Canadian government has many reasons to brown-nose the U.S, many more than the average Canadian voter is probably aware of.

Thanks for another tangent, it was fun.

All the best.

-Angus (not my real name thankfully)

 

[mariomike]

If that's not acceptable to you, then go here: https://army.ca/forums/threads/125056.1600.html and post/debate all your anti-Trump ideas there.

I don't think I have much to add to the "debate" :rofl:

U.S. Politics 2017 aka "a Trump bukkake-fest". 
Reply #711

 

[angus555]

Okay I have moved my musings elsewhere due to popular demand.

https://army.ca/forums/threads/125056/post-1513925.html#msg1513925

Take care

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

A rich guy preoccupied with money. Colour me shocked. It's still a stretch to link his organization wanting to develop a golf course to US foreign policy in the Middle East.

So, what is his intent for foreign policy in the middle east then if not a golf course? Moving the capital to Jerusalem does nothing but chew up political capital for precious little actual output.

So, was the move to move the process forward or to destroy it completely? The question of Jerusalem is a complicated one that implicates many of the US allies in the region. Take Jordan, possibly the US's greatest ally in the region outside of Israel, one of the most stable nations in the region, and a key ally against ISIS. King Abdullah II is vested with a dual problem now- First, he is the Arab worlds protector of the muslim sites in Jerusalem and second he has a nation with almost as many Palestinians as Jordanians in it. Now, the King may be forced to move away from the US due to internal pressure and prestige.

How does this move advance the peace process? Some may argue that the Arabs had no interest in a peace process so it didn't matter. There is some validity to this, but implying that Israel wants to have peace is also misleading. Israel wants peace, on Israel's terms. The Palestinians and Arabs want peace, but on their terms. So, does the move bridge the gap any? Not likely.

The other possibility is that Trump simply wants to get out of the peace brokering business. So, will the US just support Israel and hope that the Arab nations are on board against Iran or terrorism (ISIS for example). Is there a contingency for the potential that the US loses all of its allies in the region?

So, perhaps the golf course explanation isn't a bad one. At least it's easy to follow the train of thought (though, Trump's train of thought is probably akin to the old A&W music being played by a monkey).

 

[PuckChaser]

Trump showed Israel that it still has an ally in the US after Obama refused to veto a UNSC resolution basically equating Israel to Nazi or Bosnian war criminals. The only leverage he had when taking over from Obama was to make the declaration, which he did. Yep, it inflamed tensions in the region but so does every Palestinian knife attack or Hamas rocket attack/ suicide bombing. Its status quo, those who want to hate and kill find whatever reason they can to justify it.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Trump showed Israel that it still has an ally in the US after Obama refused to veto a UNSC resolution basically equating Israel to Nazi or Bosnian war criminals. The only leverage he had when taking over from Obama was to make the declaration, which he did. Yep, it inflamed tensions in the region but so does every Palestinian knife attack or Hamas rocket attack/ suicide bombing. Its status quo, those who want to hate and kill find whatever reason they can to justify it.

And some of Trump's family members are Jewish... right?

 

[mariomike]

And some of Trump's family members are Jewish... right?

Too bad he only got 24 per cent of the Jewish vote in the election. 
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/

 

[angus555]

Trump showed Israel that it still has an ally in the US after Obama refused to veto a UNSC resolution basically equating Israel to Nazi or Bosnian war criminals.

I think the US handing over $2-3 billion in aid to Israel consistently every year for the last decade is a sufficient sign that they are indeed allies.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Trump showed Israel that it still has an ally in the US after Obama refused to veto a UNSC resolution basically equating Israel to Nazi or Bosnian war criminals. The only leverage he had when taking over from Obama was to make the declaration, which he did. Yep, it inflamed tensions in the region but so does every Palestinian knife attack or Hamas rocket attack/ suicide bombing. Its status quo, those who want to hate and kill find whatever reason they can to justify it.

At what cost though? If he was simply trying to "be a bro" than there are much less permanent means of doing so that wouldn't throw regional allies (jordan) under the bus. Particularly if it's to counteract a non binding resolution that at the end of the day doesn't matter.

I legitimately hope that the adults in the US administration have a better rationale than what you propose.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Jerusalem should be the capital of a Jewish Homeland and we should not be playing real politik games to appease the racist/genocidal tendencies of the surrounding Arab populations whether they are supposedly "allies" or not.

That same philosophy should apply to the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, their continued ethnic cleansing of Kurds (which is far worse than anything the Israelis have done recently) or the funding of a PA which promotes hate education for all their people and the naming of child murderers as heroes.

Call a spade a spade every time and people will get the message.  It's the 'Let's not offend our arab allies" BS that has allowed these intolerable views to continue to exist.

It is the soft left who accept these views without criticism that allow these medieval views to continue long after they should have been extinguished.

On that note I'll be raising a glass towards Mohammed Bin Sultan in Saudi this holiday for at least trying to move that population into the 21st century. 

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Jerusalem should be the capital of a Jewish Homeland and we should not be playing real politik games to appease the racist/genocidal tendencies of the surrounding Arab populations whether they are supposedly "allies" or not.

That same philosophy should apply to the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, their continued ethnic cleansing of Kurds (which is far worse than anything the Israelis have done recently) or the funding of a PA which promotes hate education for all their people and the naming of child murderers as heroes.

Call a spade a spade every time and people will get the message.  It's the 'Let's not offend our arab allies" BS that has allowed these intolerable views to continue to exist.

It is the soft left who accept these views without criticism that allow these medieval views to continue long after they should have been extinguished.

On that note I'll be raising a glass towards Mohammed Bin Sultan in Saudi this holiday for at least trying to move that population into the 21st century.

By all means the Turks should be called out for the kurds and Armenia but I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand.

As for the rest, if the US wants Arab allies than continually pissing them off isn't in that interest. Hence the comment about what Trump's actual strategic goal here is. The US moving it's capital changes nothing positive in the changing of that dynamic.

If they don't want arab allies than that's a strategic impetus they need to consider, along with impacts of pushing more Arabs into Iranian or Turkish influence and continuing to fuel extremist groups.

I personally believe that Trump is neither inclined nor smart enough to have a grand strategy.

 

[angus555]

If they don't want arab allies than that's a strategic impetus they need to consider, along with impacts of pushing more Arabs into Iranian or Turkish influence and continuing to fuel extremist groups.

Or pushing them into Russian influence for that matter.

Aside from having a Russian diaspora in Israel, the Kremlin just doesn't buy into this "Jewish Homeland" nonsense like the US does.

And look how gently the West had to tiptoe around the Syrian government the last few years. Smart move indeed.

EDIT:

I don't think peace will ever occur when each side wants their own homogeneous homeland with no opposition.

Like I said before, peace will only occur through secularization. It will defeat the point of having homelands and religious wars based on the writings in whatever edition of the Goat Herder's Guide to the Galaxy one might own.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Jewish homeland nonsense?

 

[angus555]

Jewish homeland nonsense?

Yes, in Genesis 12:7... a few pages away from the talking snake.
I'll leave it at that.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Jewish homeland nonsense?

The Jewish presence in what is now Israel is well known. The trouble perhaps is the time lines.  Judea/Israel dates back to about 1000 BCE if the bible is correct. Jerusalem specifically was conquered by the jews in 1000 BCE ftom the jebusites who had controlled the area since the fall of egyptian parsimony. It was conquered in 597 BCE by the babylonians then Persians. It then cycled  through Alexander,  the Romans, and finally Muslims in about 650 AD. The region in general was captured in 1099 and remained as the kingdom of Jerusalem until 1291. At that time it returned to Muslim control until 1918 when the British took control of Palestine.  It became Israel in 1948.

So what? Jewish presence in the area is about 3018 years old. Christian presence is about 2018 years old. Muslim presence is about 1318 years. What then is the statute of limitations on a right to call an area home? All three major religions have had longer time in the area by 700 years then Europeans have been in north America. If this is the case, do you support natives being given back parts of canada and the US? What becomes our standard for who gets to live where? When is the past simply the past?

You may also note that the jews didn't start in israel. Abraham was born in either Iraq or Turkey (there's debate) and searched for the promised land through the mid east to Egypt. When Moses led them out he traveled to mount nebo (in jordan) where he was shown the land of milk and honey. Israel then was founded. So, are the real owners the Jewish people or the assyrians (now palestinians)?

 

[PuckChaser]

If this is the case, do you support natives being given back parts of canada and the US? What becomes our standard for who gets to live where? When is the past simply the past?

You're contradicting your own argument. It's been 70 years since the land was given to the Israelis. Almost 3 generations. Multiple failed invasions and wars. When should the Arabs simply accept "the past is simply the past"?

I would really like to see Jerusalem turned into a city-state like the Vatican ruled by a democratic council with a representative of each major religion in the area (Jews, Christians, Muslims). It would set a model for religious tolerance and acceptance to resonate across the region.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

You're contradicting your own argument. It's been 70 years since the land was given to the Israelis. Almost 3 generations. Multiple failed invasions and wars. When should the Arabs simply accept "the past is simply the past"?

I would really like to see Jerusalem turned into a city-state like the Vatican ruled by a democratic council with a representative of each major religion in the area (Jews, Christians, Muslims). It would set a model for religious tolerance and acceptance to resonate across the region.

I'm not contradicting anything since I never stated a point but asked questions. The question then stands. What entitles a people to a historical homeland? Control, presence, or both? If presence (which many believe), the the Americas have a big problem.

You may also note the Israelis were given the land by the British who gained it through conquest.

 

[angus555]

I'm not contradicting anything since I never stated a point but asked questions. The question then stands. What entitles a people to a historical homeland? Control, presence, or both? If presence (which many believe), the the Americas have a big problem.

You may also note the Israelis were given the land by the British who gained it through conquest.

Yes I have thought about that. The status quo is that Israel, with its wide array of people and infrastructure will have to exist, in all fairness. I just wouldn't call it Israel. I'd call it a nice warm place to live. My argument is for secularization, not operating governments or rebellious groups based on religious ideology. It would be much easier to sort out if there wasn't a perpetual battle going on.

As for America and its indigenous population, at least we stopped trying to Christianize them and turn them into white people. That's quite a step forward, although a bit late given the damage done to them.