Replacing the Subs

[Kirkhill]

A bit more on Cellula

Solus-XR — Cellula Robotics

www.cellula.com

Interesting Concept of Operations video for the Canadian Arctic at the link.

 

[KevinB]

Taylor C. Noakes has some interesting takes on things.

Your much more polite than I, as I think he's an assclown.

 

[dimsum]

Your much more polite than I, as I think he's an assclown.

What can I say - I’m diplomatic.

 

[GR66]

A bit more on Cellula

Solus-XR — Cellula Robotics

www.cellula.com

Interesting Concept of Operations video for the Canadian Arctic at the link.

No reason we couldn't deploy seafloor sensors now with AOPS and have small surface craft monitor them.

I have serious doubts about the ability of a UUV to work effectively under ice in the NWP though with currents, the tons of low frequency noise interfering with detection, comms, navigation, etc.

 

[Kirkhill]

No reason we couldn't deploy seafloor sensors now with AOPS and have small surface craft monitor them.

I have serious doubts about the ability of a UUV to work effectively under ice in the NWP though with currents, the tons of low frequency noise interfering with detection, comms, navigation, etc.

Who says they all have to work all the time? The advantage of a multi-nodal system is redundancy. If only 50% of the net is up you can still maintain connectivity. And if the nodes are in constant motion they are less likely to be damaged in the first place.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The author is covering so many different opinions in one article it is nonsensical.

"We need destroyers and anti-sub patrol aircraft.. but we should focus more on housing affordability, protecting Canada from forest fires, and stay away from offensive weapons that make the world more unsafe because it will provoke the hoatile actors who already are at war with us...."

Tell me you have zero knowledge on defense and security matters without telling me you have zero knowledtlge on defense and secuirty matters...

It sounded typically Canadian to me.

 

[OldSolduer]

What can I say - I’m diplomatic.

And this is why you work in a place that needs a bit of tact. I am afraid I'd have the capability to offend everyone. Except the padre. He's good.

 

[Happy Guy]

Critics attack long timelines in defence plan as military awaits a budget boost​

The defence policy says DND will study options to replace the navy's submarines. Both Blair and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau have said the submarines will be replaced — that it's a matter of when and how, not if.

The prime minister even went a step further and suggested nuclear-powered submarines are among the possible options — something Eyre said surprised him.

"We don't have firm direction on that," Eyre said, indicating the navy has proposed acquiring between eight and 12 conventionally-powered submarines.

"Within the military, we are not pursuing a nuclear option. However, discussions are early. As we take a look at what would be required for a nuclear capability versus what we realistically have, that is an option that I personally doubt will be further explored or further developed. That being said, we remain open to all options."

IMO, these remarks are simply political speak for a losing gov't who is trying to capture votes. The LPC with the NPD signed several bills committing a significant amount of money into social programs without paying much attention to shepherding and encouraging businesses with tax costs or more friendly regulations to ensure future economic growth. Given the current budget deficit and the growing pressure caused by managing it, there will not be much leeway by any gov't to adequately fund national defence/security priorities.

When the PM mentioned the possbility of acquiring nuclear submarines and the CDS was suprised to hear that, this means to me that the PM was speaking out of his ass. Of course this is political speak to make it look like the gov't is "exploring all options" - which means we will talk about it but do minimal work or window dressing to make it look like we are exploring without committing any major amounts funds to really explore the options.

Realistically, based on the current financial situation - replacement of the Victoria Class submarines will not happen, or if it does, it will be a classic case of fitted for, but not with in order to make it affordable.

BLUF: Canada will not get the right submarines it desparately requires.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Critics attack long timelines in defence plan as military awaits a budget boost​

IMO, these remarks are simply political speak for a losing gov't who is trying to capture votes. The LPC with the NPD signed several bills committing a significant amount of money into social programs without paying much attention to shepherding and encouraging businesses with tax costs or more friendly regulations to ensure future economic growth. Given the current budget deficit and the growing pressure caused by managing it, there will not be much leeway by any gov't to adequately fund national defence/security priorities.

When the PM mentioned the possbility of acquiring nuclear submarines and the CDS was suprised to hear that, this means to me that the PM was speaking out of his ass. Of course this is political speak to make it look like the gov't is "exploring all options" - which means we will talk about it but do minimal work or window dressing to make it look like we are exploring without committing any major amounts funds to really explore the options.

Realistically, based on the current financial situation - replacement of the Victoria Class submarines will not happen, or if it does, it will be a classic case of fitted for, but not with in order to make it affordable.

BLUF: Canada will not get the right submarines it desparately requires.

Usually the BLUF goes at the start.

 

[Happy Guy]

Usually the BLUF goes at the start.

BOTTOM LINE UP FRONT

 

[Kirkhill]

21" UUVs for the AUKUS programme

AUKUS Underwater Capability Developments Target Torpedo-tube UUV System - Naval News

AUKUS pillar 2 calls for the capacity to launch and recover uncrewed underwater vehicles (UUVs) from submarine torpedo tubes.

www.navalnews.com

 

[dimsum]

Usually the BLUF goes at the start.

It still irks me that people write BLUF at all.

How about “Summary”?

 

[calculus]

This should be a cautionary tale for those who push nuclear subs on this forum. Even with an increase to the Australian defence budget to 2.4% of GDP, significant cuts to other programs will be required to support that acquisition.

Australia unveils 'historic' defense boost to 2.4% of GDP in decade, but critics say too little, too late - Breaking Defense

Part of the shakeup includes tens of billions for nuclear-powered subs, and halting the pricey procurement of an additional F-35 fighter jet squadron.

breakingdefense.com

 

[dimsum]

This should be a cautionary tale for those who push nuclear subs on this forum. Even with an increase to the Australian defence budget to 2.4% of GDP, significant cuts to other programs will be required to support that acquisition.

Australia unveils 'historic' defense boost to 2.4% of GDP in decade, but critics say too little, too late - Breaking Defense

Part of the shakeup includes tens of billions for nuclear-powered subs, and halting the pricey procurement of an additional F-35 fighter jet squadron.

breakingdefense.com

From the article:

The shadow defense minister, former SAS captain Andrew Hastie, sharply criticized Marles and the government over the strategy, saying Marles used “vague, bureaucratic language in talking about our defense strategy.”

“We are still no clearer on what ‘impactful projection’ is, or how it will work for the ADF,” Hastie said at a press conference following Marles’ speech. “There is a lack of clarity about Labor’s design for the ADF and how the constituent parts will work together.”

Hmm…almost like the criticisms against our NSF…

 

[Cloud Cover]

This should be a cautionary tale for those who push nuclear subs on this forum. Even with an increase to the Australian defence budget to 2.4% of GDP, significant cuts to other programs will be required to support that acquisition.

Australia unveils 'historic' defense boost to 2.4% of GDP in decade, but critics say too little, too late - Breaking Defense

Part of the shakeup includes tens of billions for nuclear-powered subs, and halting the pricey procurement of an additional F-35 fighter jet squadron.

breakingdefense.com

Per the bottom of the article, which 2 Joint Supply Ships were terminated? I thought they were increasing the number of surface ships, which ostensibly need supplies …

 

[KevinB]

This should be a cautionary tale for those who push nuclear subs on this forum. Even with an increase to the Australian defence budget to 2.4% of GDP, significant cuts to other programs will be required to support that acquisition.

Australia unveils 'historic' defense boost to 2.4% of GDP in decade, but critics say too little, too late - Breaking Defense

Part of the shakeup includes tens of billions for nuclear-powered subs, and halting the pricey procurement of an additional F-35 fighter jet squadron.

breakingdefense.com

Well if they where in NATO they would supposed to be working to 3%

Canada is also in a much better position to adopt Nuke boats that Australia - having a domestic nuclear industry already, as better rationale given the Arctic and Range needed for Pacific movement in times of crisis - as well as the fact that you are next door to the SME's on Nuke boats.

Interestingly enough there is a lot of angst here about AUKUS, as we are basically taking a bath on the costs of the Virginias to supply Australia initially, as well as the tech transfers and training that will be done.

 

[Kirkhill]

Indo-Pacific Archives - Breaking Defense

breakingdefense.com

Another Anduril project - The Ghost Shark

 

[Kirkhill]

Anduril, South Korean shipbuilder HD Hyundai announce new partnership for autonomous systems - Breaking Defense

US Navy Secretary Carlos Del Toro has praised South Korean shipbuilders such as HD Hyundai at recent events, encouraging more participation with US industry.

breakingdefense.com

 

[Kirkhill]

More on the Ghost Shark

Australia’s Ghost Shark Uncrewed Submarine Breaks Cover

The Ghost Shark is Australia’s ambitious extra-large autonomous undersea vehicle, but details about its future missions remain scarce.

www.twz.com

The article expresses concern that the Anduril Ghost Shark seems to be trying to achieve what Boeing's Orca has failed to deliver with a much larger budget and a much longer timeline. Apparently the concern revolves around the lack of prescribed targets or concept of operations.

Anduril is also taking a dead run at the Boeing Ghost Bat UAV with its Fury. While Boeing is proceeding conventionally to produce a 30 MUSD product Anduril is proceeding unconventionally to produce a 3 MUSD product.

My sense is that Anduril, like Musk, is building things to see what they can do, rather than spending time and money trying to build things that may not be possible.

If Anduril, and companies like it, can build lots of toys cheaply then users will find out how best they can use them.

Once that is established then continuous improvement cycles kick in and people start asking for modifications.

 

[Kirkhill]

So

Looking at the Ghost Shark on the dock beside all the dignitaries suggested to me that the usable volume seems to be about the same as that of a TEU-20





So next question,

How many Mark 60 Captors could be carried in a TEU-20?

TEU-20 Interior Dimensions (in meters): 5.898m long x 2.352m wide x 2.393m high
Mark 60 CAPTOR Dimension (in meters): 3.35m long x 0.53m diameter

It looks like maybe 10 CAPTORS in a rotary launcher. If the length were increased from 5.898m to 6.70m then you might get two rotary launchers in the same space or 20 CAPTORS.

On December 12, 2022 7 , during a ceremony (by invitation only 2 ) held in Sydney 8 , Anduril unveiled its first underwater drone prototype. On this occasion, the Royal Australian Navy revealed that the program was officially named Ghost Shark 1 , 7 . The first prototype is called the “Dive-LD”, for “ Dive-Large Displacement 2 ” (in French: diving , grand displacement ). This is a test bench 2 , 5 which will be used for testing and experimentation purposes 1 , 3 for the development of the future extra-large underwater drone (XL-AUV) which will succeed it 2 . This is a starting point for developing software , techniques, and testing payloads , all with the goal of scaling the robot to the size needed for prolonged operations at great depths . The Dive-LD is smaller than the upcoming final Ghost Shark 6 . However, it is already not a small drone: it measures 5.8 meters long and has a diameter of 1.2 meters. It weighs 2.8 tonnes. It can reach a speed of 13 km/h 5 and can “autonomously carry out missions for up to 10 days on the seabed up to 6,000 meters deep”, declared the Anduril company in a press release 1 . Its maximum range is 580 km 5 . It can be assumed that larger versions will perform even better 1 . The prototype, whose outer shell was printed on a 3D printer 5 , can reach staggering depths of 6,000 meters 2 . Indeed, not needing a pressurized hull, it can descend to a much greater depth than the manned submarines currently in service. The maximum depths reached by military submarines are usually classified information, but naval analysts told Reuters they are between 300 and 900 meters. The ability to descend to much greater depths can make a submarine more difficult to detect and attack. Submarine manufacturing and performance are being radically transformed by being unmanned , 4 explained Dr. Shane Arnott, senior vice president of engineering at Anduril 2 , 9 . “A large part of submarine systems (and associated expenses) is devoted to crew survival,” Arnott said in an interview he gave at the company's offices in Sydney. Take away the men, and submarines become much easier and cheaper to build. Thus, the Ghost Shark does not have a pressurized hull, this envelope (usually tubular) of high-strength steel which protects the crew and sensitive components of a submarine from the enormous pressure exerted by the water by great depth. Water flows freely through the Ghost Shark's structure . This means that Anduril can build a lot of them, and quickly. And the Ghost Shark will be able to perform maneuvers that no conventional military vehicle could survive, such as diving thousands of meters below the surface of the ocean 4 .

Ghost Shark (drone) — Wikipédia

fr.wikipedia.org