• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Close Area Suppression Weapon (was Company Area Suppression Weapon)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Marc22
  • Start date Start date
New weapon systems for the ADF.

http://armynews.realviewdigital.com/?iid=140489#folio=2 - new GMG.  I'm not sure where Canada went with the CASW; this beauty will remain an option within the DFSW platoon, probably mounted on either a soon-to-be discovered ATV, and most likely incorporated in the new AFV platforms. 

http://armynews.realviewdigital.com/#folio=16 - modernised rifle including new grenade launcher attachment and optics.

I'd like to show you the new 60mm mortars but until I see an old SGT with a smile on his face, holding a real weapon system, this still remains "in the works."  Regardless, the mortar community is reading up and showing everyone who listens how the weapon has been employed since the '70s.

 
An interesting historical find, the Hughes "Heligun". This is a twin barrel revolver weapon (fixed barrels, rotating chambers) which was advertised to have a potential firing rate of 6000 RPM in a 30 lb (15kg) package of self powered goodness. Sadly, it was never able to overcome some reliability issues and development was ended in favour of the externally powers minions we are familiar with today.

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/Heligun/Heligun%20EX17.pdf

Note, this is not related to the Gast gun (where the recoil force of one barrel powered the cycling of the other barrels loading and firing cycle through a system of linkages).

A self powered machine gun with a high rate of fire, especially when mated to a powered mount and advanced targeting system would be a great vehicle mounted system to break ambushes, drive off UAV and UCAVs and have some potential as a C-RAM weapon. In the future, we may see small UCAVs as dedicated fire support platforms for small units, and such a weapon might be useful in that role as well.
 
Came across this, the WWII era German MK-108 30mm cannon. While an aircraft canon for fighter planes and designed for use in shooting down bombers, the description of the ammunition and the size and form factor of the weapon is actually similar to an automatic grenade launcher (note the short barrel and low muzzle velocity). Reverse engineered with today's materials to reduce its weight it might actually make an effective automatic grenade launcher on a vehicle mount...

http://www.luft46.com/armament/mk108.html

Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 108 30mm cannon

In many ways, the Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 108 30mm cannon was considered to be a masterpiece of weapons engineering, due to it's compact size, ease of manufacture and hitting power. Although it was first designed by Rheinmetall-Borsig in 1940 as a private venture, the design was finalized in 1942. It met a later RLM requirement for a new aircraft cannon that could knock down enemy bombers with the lowest expenditure of ammunition and stay beyond the range of enemy defensive fire.

In short, the MK 108 was a blow-back operated, rear-seared, belt fed 30 mm cannon using electric ignition and was charged and triggered by simple compressed air. One drawback was that once installed, there was no method to adjust the gun's harmonization. One distinctive physical feature was the very short gun barrel, which gave the MK 108 a low muzzle velocity of 500-540 meters (1640-1770 feet) per second. The maximum rate of fire was 650 rounds per minute. The operating sequence for the MK 108 went like this:

An ammunition can fed the rounds to the gun by means of a disintegrating belt
Once the sear was released, the bolt went forward under the action of the two driving springs
A projection on the top of the bolt passed through the ring, thus extracting a round
This then forced the round into the chamber and fired the round while the heavy bolt was still moving forwards
The empty cartridge case reinserted itself in its link after firing
Ejection was achieved by means of pawls activated by camming grooves that were cut into the top of the bolt
Finally, the new round slipped into position and the sequence repeated

An interesting feature was that neither the barrel or receiver moved in recoil, the entire force of firing was absorbed by the rearward movement of the bolt against the driving springs, which buffered against the recoil. No locking mechanism was needed, because by the time the fired round had overcome the inertia of the firing bolt, the round had left the barrel and the pressure had dropped.

There were two main types of ammunition for the MK 108 to use, a 30 mm high-explosive self-destroying tracer  ("M-Shell" or "Mine-Shell") and a 30 mm incendiary shell. The first type was designed to cause a maximum blast effect by combining a very thin shell casing with the maximum load of explosive. Tests carried out at Rechlin (where most of the Luftwaffe aircraft and weapons tests were done) showed that with a "M-Shell" with 85 grains of explosive, five hits could destroy a B-17 or B-24 bomber. The second type of shell, the incendiary, was meant to be targeted at the fuel tanks of the enemy plane. Since some penetrating force was still needed to overcome the armor or airframe of the target, and not have the shell break up or explode upon contact, a hydrodynamic fuse was fitted so that the shell only exploded once it came into contact with liquid.

Although there were drawbacks with the MK 108, such as an insufficient flat trajectory (the shell "arced" too much due to the low muzzle velocity) and that the ammunition belts sometimes ripped when the guns were fired while the aircraft was banking sharply, the MK 108 was chosen to be fitted in a wide variety of Luftwaffe aircraft (please see table below) before the war's end. It was also planned to be used in many of the project aircraft also (please see table below), for the reasons given above: ease of manufacture, compact size and weight and destructive power. The MK 108 30mm cannon earned a fearsome reputation among Allied bomber crews, who named it the "pneumatic hammer" due to its distinctive firing sound.

Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 108 30mm cannon data
Designation Maunfacturer Caliber Length Weight Rounds/Minute Muzzle Velocity Projectile Weight CartridgeWeight
MK 108 Rheinmetall-Borsig 30 mm    1057 mm 58 kg 660*                 500-540 m 330 g                 480 g



 

Attachments

  • mk108-1.gif
    mk108-1.gif
    14.7 KB · Views: 215
  • mk108-2.gif
    mk108-2.gif
    15.4 KB · Views: 234
  • mk108-7.jpg
    mk108-7.jpg
    8.7 KB · Views: 249
The 25 mm cannon fires a lighter round at a higher velocity than a 40 mm AGL. The wind effects will be horrible if you try lobbing that.

Remember as well, “indirect fire” is not a synonym for lobbing shots through high angles of fire. You can do indirect with flatter trajectories.
 
The 25 mm cannon fires a lighter round at a higher velocity than a 40 mm AGL. The wind effects will be horrible if you try lobbing that.

Remember as well, “indirect fire” is not a synonym for lobbing shots through high angles of fire. You can do indirect with flatter trajectories.
Aye seen the effect of wind on direct ranges and it was substantial.

We played around with longer range stuff in Afghanistan when we got a chance to play around. Even a light winds made any kind of fall of shot scattered and likely non effective
 
The 25 mm cannon fires a lighter round at a higher velocity than a 40 mm AGL. The wind effects will be horrible if you try lobbing that.

Remember as well, “indirect fire” is not a synonym for lobbing shots through high angles of fire. You can do indirect with flatter trajectories.

Understood.

WRT the 25/40 comparison - how does the 25 compare to Plamya's 30?
 
Aye seen the effect of wind on direct ranges and it was substantial.

We played around with longer range stuff in Afghanistan when we got a chance to play around. Even a light winds made any kind of fall of shot scattered and likely non effective

Judging from the dispersal patterns of holes in Ukraine - and the use of Plamya, Grads, tossing rockets from helicopters and Frogfoots and even the tube artillery patterns - the locals seem quite content with harassing and suppressing and not too bothered if they don't neutralize and destroy.
 
Bumping this up -

Ukrainians using their AGLs as automatic mortars.


To me this reopens the discussion about using the Bushmasters on the LAVs in High Angle fire. If nothing else it might disconcert a Javelin team 4 km away.
It’s in the manual for the C16, but 40mm is light and slow and gets played with by wind badly.
 
It’s in the manual for the C16, but 40mm is light and slow and gets played with by wind badly.
Depending on your FCS, that can be pretty much a non issue.

The 30mm AGS-17 is significantly worse for that, it’s got a slew of other issues too.
 
Depending on your FCS, that can be pretty much a non issue.

The 30mm AGS-17 is significantly worse for that, it’s got a slew of other issues too.
Yeah there’s issues with ours, I’d rather used the irons myself
 
Yeah there’s issues with ours, I’d rather used the irons myself
Yeah, I've hit (stationary) tanks at 1600m with a Mk 40's iron sights within 2-3 short bursts with iron sights. Enough practice you can instinctively apply elevation. Much better on a vehicle mount I've found.

AGS-17 is ubique. Very ubique past 500m.
 
Yep with a 30g payload. I mean it's not useless, but it's not great. If you don't have an AGL and someone gives you an AGS 17/30 and ammo, don't say no.
Say no. Especially if you don’t know where the ammo came from…

I’ve seen more than one spontaneous explosion on loading with them. Not a good look for the crew, fortunately the round is relatively anemic.
 
Say no. Especially if you don’t know where the ammo came from…

I’ve seen more than one spontaneous explosion on loading with them. Not a good look for the crew, fortunately the round is relatively anemic.
Yes
 
So....if the 30mm is anemic, and the 40mm suffers considerably from wind drift and has a similarly small payload, should we be looking at going back to 60mm mortars again? (Thread derail notification goes here.)
 
Back
Top