Sikh & India (Alleged) Shenanigans in Canada (split fm Non-Muslim terr thread)

[Haggis]

Who would even think of inspecting AF1? Canada is very small potatoes, (vegitable).

Canada has Little Potato.

 

[KevinB]

I thought a HoS aircraft was treated similarly to an Embassy. It’s considered sovereign territory. No?

Correct.

 

[brihard]

Unless you have a bunch of SigInt that gives you all that already...
But I think that ends at the point that Canada doesn't seem to be able to handle Intelligence Criminal issues as well as allies.
*And toss them in the back of the Suburban to drop at the border won't work in this case.

Sorry, but wrong. Speculation follows, informed by law and practice but not by any knowledge of this specific case:

If police are investigating a murder with intent to be able to bring evidence to court, they need to chase all the conventional evidence. You aren’t going to see any substantive SIGINT introduced as criminal evidence in Canadian court, with the need for someone to attribute and source it, for someone to come to court to testify as to its acquisition and veracity… Two different worlds. Where security intelligence DOES inform necessary law enforcement activity, there will still be a firewall to protect police investigators from being ‘tainted’ by information they can’t un-hear and can’t introduce in court. And besides that, SIGINT may give you the overall plot, it not who the shooters are.

 

[Kirkhill]

Moving back to the Khalistani integration side of the discussion.

In the Ujjal Dosanjh interview up thread Mr Dosanjh was at pains to say that Canada should expect some degree of integration from its immigrants. He and I are both immigrants. I agree with him. I have met many immigrants like us.


Ujjal Dosanjh, Suella Braverman, Rakib Ehsan.

The problem is not uniquely Canadian.

The British Home Secretary, Suella Braverman is currently in Washington arguing for a change in the WW2 vintage UN refugee rules as not fit for purpose. Rules established to managed 2,000,000 locally displaced people in Europe now encompass 780,000,000 economic migrants globally. And they are bringing with them a degree of disorder.

Curiously enough some of the biggest supporters of immigration controls and integration are immigrants. I'm betting that they and their parents sought out the West because it wasn't their homelands. Samosas and haggis and Newkie Broon are all well and good but that is about the extent of the homeland that many of us wanted to bring with us.

Ujjal is from 1947 Punjab, born in the year of partition.
Suella's parents are Indians from East Africa that emigrated in the era of Idi Amin
Rakib has arabic roots but like Suella was born in England.
The late Tarek Fatah, I think, could be safely added to their number.

Multiculturalism has failed – and threatens to bring down British democracy​

It is an issue that Suella Braverman's colleagues, however much they may agree, have been far too timid to confront
RAKIB EHSAN 26 September 2023 • 6:05pm

In her speech in Washington DC today, Home Secretary Suella Braverman repeated what David Cameron declared at a 2011 security conference in Munich – that multiculturalism has failed.

Despite the howls of indignation from her opponents, this is a perfectly reasonable position to reach, especially after last year’s large-scale public disorder in Leicester, primarily between Hindu and Muslim youths.

A string of post-industrial northern English towns continue to have issues with ethnic and religious segregation – from Blackburn in Lancashire to Dewsbury in Yorkshire. And more recently, race-based tribalism reared its ugly head in the south-east London district of Peckham. Following a physical altercation between an Asian-heritage business owner and a black woman accused of theft, racist messages were left on the establishment such as “go to hell Patel”.

The gravest danger to Britain’s multi-ethnic democracy is not white-British racism – it is the importation of tribal ideologies fuelling tensions between its minorities. Whether it is American-inspired racial identity politics, subcontinental-style communalism, or Arab-world sectarianism, community cohesion in relatively diverse parts of the country is under strain. It is made worse by the fundamental lack of political, social, and law-and-order leadership on this front.

This of course leads us to the all-important question: what have the Tories been doing over their thirteen years in government? They have failed to cultivate a wholesome and inclusive civic nationalism rooted in Britain’s tremendous heritage. There is no meaningful national integration strategy – nor are local authorities and other public bodies (such as schools and NHS trusts) under any official legal requirement to publish their own strategies for facilitating the social, economic, and cultural integration of diverse communities. The neighbourhood model of policing – especially in more diverse and deprived areas – has been virtually gutted. To top it all off, the latest annual net migration figures skyrocketed to an unprecedented figure of 606,000.

Talk is cheap. Governments are ultimately judged by their results. When it comes to the failures of multiculturalism, Suella Braverman is right – but what will her party do about it?

Toleration - Intolerance is the one thing we should not tolerate.

That, and public disorder

Oh, and disrespect for the laws enacted by parliament...

Where are the comfy chairs?

 

[YZT580]

While I am no PMJT fan, Heads of State (or Elected Leaders of Commonwealth countries that aren't really the HoS) don't go through security like that at all, and in no fucking way are host nation LE etc allowed into the aircraft.

all true but maybe the point of it all is contained in the phrase 'there are credible...' a la Trudeau's comments in Parliament.

 

[KevinB]

all true but maybe the point of it all is contained in the phrase 'there are credible...' a la Trudeau's comments in Parliament.

Well the difference is that your PM could have a whole litany of non public things that would give him rise to say that (again disregarding the whole one generally doesn’t blab about Intelligence, or accuse nations of doing such things, unless your DJT) whereas the Indian article is based on non possible events, unless they are quoting RCMP Dog Handlers…

 

[KevinB]

Sorry, but wrong. Speculation follows, informed by law and practice but not by any knowledge of this specific case:

If police are investigating a murder with intent to be able to bring evidence to court, they need to chase all the conventional evidence. You aren’t going to see any substantive SIGINT introduced as criminal evidence in Canadian court, with the need for someone to attribute and source it, for someone to come to court to testify as to its acquisition and veracity… Two different worlds. Where security intelligence DOES inform necessary law enforcement activity, there will still be a firewall to protect police investigators from being ‘tainted’ by information they can’t un-hear and can’t introduce in court. And besides that, SIGINT may give you the overall plot, it not who the shooters are.

Perhaps it should be RCMP Investigators with clearances, and a non public court?

It’s an interesting case, which to me shows the difference between how Canada and most NATO members handle things.

I would suspect that in something akin to this that it wouldn’t just be SIGINT but a number of other Intelligence aspects as well. None of which will see light of day in a Canadian Courtroom.

Which then one wonders what the net result of a failure to prosecute would be.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I doubt there is an evidence that could be submitted in a court of law to bring any of the Indian government personal to trial. Even if they had cold hard evidence, they likley gotten via other means they can't disclose.

 

[brihard]

Perhaps it should be RCMP Investigators with clearances, and a non public court?

It’s an interesting case, which to me shows the difference between how Canada and most NATO members handle things.

I would suspect that in something akin to this that it wouldn’t just be SIGINT but a number of other Intelligence aspects as well. None of which will see light of day in a Canadian Courtroom.

Which then one wonders what the net result of a failure to prosecute would be.

There’s a very strong presumption of open court. Public can be excluded from criminal hearings under very exceptional circumstances, but the threshold is super high for that. Typically, where Canadian criminal law has seen allegations crash into classified information, protection of classified info prevails.

Canada has a major “intelligence to evidence” dilemma that some switched on academics have written about. We could definitely stand to improve.

 

[KevinB]

There’s a very strong presumption of open court. Public can be excluded from criminal hearings under very exceptional circumstances, but the threshold is super high for that. Typically, where Canadian criminal law has seen allegations crash into classified information, protection of classified info prevails.

Canada has a major “intelligence to evidence” dilemma that some switched on academics have written about. We could definitely stand to improve.

I'm honestly surprised in the years since 911, that Canada hasn't changed some National Security laws to better secure Canada, and Canadians, without jeopardizing Intelligence.

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm honestly surprised in the years since 911, that Canada hasn't changed some National Security laws to better secure Canada, and Canadians, without jeopardizing Intelligence votes.

 

[OldSolduer]

Moving back to the Khalistani integration side of the discussion.

In the Ujjal Dosanjh interview up thread Mr Dosanjh was at pains to say that Canada should expect some degree of integration from its immigrants. He and I are both immigrants. I agree with him. I have met many immigrants like us.

View attachment 80298View attachment 80299View attachment 80300
Ujjal Dosanjh, Suella Braverman, Rakib Ehsan.

The problem is not uniquely Canadian.

The British Home Secretary, Suella Braverman is currently in Washington arguing for a change in the WW2 vintage UN refugee rules as not fit for purpose. Rules established to managed 2,000,000 locally displaced people in Europe now encompass 780,000,000 economic migrants globally. And they are bringing with them a degree of disorder.

Curiously enough some of the biggest supporters of immigration controls and integration are immigrants. I'm betting that they and their parents sought out the West because it wasn't their homelands. Samosas and haggis and Newkie Broon are all well and good but that is about the extent of the homeland that many of us wanted to bring with us.

Ujjal is from 1947 Punjab, born in the year of partition.
Suella's parents are Indians from East Africa that emigrated in the era of Idi Amin
Rakib has arabic roots but like Suella was born in England.
The late Tarek Fatah, I think, could be safely added to their number.



Toleration - Intolerance is the one thing we should not tolerate.

That, and public disorder

Oh, and disrespect for the laws enacted by parliament...

Where are the comfy chairs?

With the soft cushions…..

 

[The Bread Guy]

A few tidbits to throw into the stew ...

US diplomat says intelligence from 'Five Eyes' nations helped Canada to link India to Sikh's killing

The U.S. ambassador to Canada has said that information shared from members of an intelligence-sharing alliance was part of what Prime Minister Justin Trudeau used to make public allegations of the Indian government's possible involvement in the assassination a Sikh Canadian.

apnews.com

US Urges Indian Cooperation With Canada's Investigation of Sikh Leader's Killing

Canada’s allegation of Indian government involvement in an apparent political assassination roils relations between the nations

www.voanews.com

Sikh separatist killing: US expects India to work with Canada on case

Allies appeared to take a cautious approach over the killing of Sikh separatist leader and Canadian citizen Hardeep Singh Nijjar. PM Trudeau said credible intelligence linked Indian agents to the murder.

www.reuters.com

U.S. State Department âurgesâ Indian cooperation in Canadaâs investigation into Nijjarâs killing

US State Department urges India to cooperate in Canadian investigation into murder of Sikh separatist leader Hardeep Singh Nijjar

www.thehindu.com

In smackdown for ages aimed at US and Canada, EAM Jaishankar says political convenience should not dictate response to terrorism | India News - Times of India

India News: External Affairs Minister, S. Jaishankar, criticized the United States and Canada at the United Nations, stating that responses to terrorism should no

m.timesofindia.com

And this from the U.S. Sec of State ....

... First, we are deeply concerned about the allegations that Prime Minister Trudeau has raised. We have been consulting throughout very closely with our Canadian colleagues – and not just consulting, coordinating with them – on this issue. And from our perspective, it is critical that the Canadian investigation proceed, and it would be important that India work with the Canadians on this investigation. We want to see accountability, and it’s important that the investigation run its course and lead to that result.

I’m not going to characterize or otherwise speak to diplomatic conversations that we have. We’ve been engaged directly with the Indian Government as well. And again, I think the most productive thing that can happen now is to see this investigation move forward, be completed. And we would hope that our Indian friends would cooperate with that investigation as well.

More broadly – and you’ve heard me speak to this – we are extremely vigilant about any instances of alleged transnational repression, something we take very, very seriously. And I think it’s important more broadly for the international system that any country that might consider engaging in such acts not do so. So it’s something that we’re also focused on in a much broader way ...

 

[Good2Golf]

And this from the U.S. Sec of State ....

... First, we are deeply concerned about the allegations that Prime Minister Trudeau has raised. We have been consulting throughout very closely with our Canadian colleagues – and not just consulting, coordinating with them – on this issue. And from our perspective, it is critical that the Canadian investigation proceed, and it would be important that India work with the Canadians on this investigation. We want to see accountability, and it’s important that the investigation run its course and lead to that result.

I’m not going to characterize or otherwise speak to diplomatic conversations that we have. We’ve been engaged directly with the Indian Government as well. And again, I think the most productive thing that can happen now is to see this investigation move forward, be completed. And we would hope that our Indian friends would cooperate with that investigation as well.

More broadly – and you’ve heard me speak to this – we are extremely vigilant about any instances of alleged transnational repression, something we take very, very seriously. And I think it’s important more broadly for the international system that any country that might consider engaging in such acts not do so. So it’s something that we’re also focused on in a much broader way ...

ie. Canada: “We would like to announce that we will be buying 16 P-8A Poseidon anti-submarine aircraft from the United States next week.”

 

[The Bread Guy]

ie. Canada: “We would like to announce that we will be buying 16 P-8A Poseidon anti-submarine aircraft from the United States next week.”

Whatever closes the deal, right?

 

[Good2Golf]

Whatever closes the deal, right?

It’s a brave new transformationally-transactional world…

 

[Kirkhill]

Did anybody notice?

Indian hackers target Canadian military website amid row over murder of Sikh leader​

A screenshot showed an error page with the message '#f—canada' as tensions simmered between Justin Trudeau and New Delhi

ByGareth Corfield27 September 2023 • 9:53pm

Justin Trudeau has been caught in a diplomatic spat with New Delhi over the murder of Hardeep Singh Nijjar in Canada
Hackers calling themselves the Indian Cyber Force have claimed credit for knocking the Canadian Armed Forces’ official website offline as a diplomatic row grows between the two countries.
The group, not thought to have formal links to New Delhi, said on Telegram that it had “taken down” the www.forces.ca website.
Operators of the channel shared a screenshot of an error page with the message “#f—canada”.
Last week they posted the message: “Get ready to feel the power of IndianCyberForce attacks will be launching on Canada cyber space… it’s for the mess your started”. [sic]
The cyberattack, thought to be a “distributed denial of service” (DDoS) assault, came as tensions between New Delhi and Ottawa continued to simmer over the murder of an Indian dissident in Canada.
Hardeep Singh Nijjar, a prominent Sikh leader in British Columbia, was shot dead by two masked gunmen outside Canada’s largest Sikh temple in June 2023.

Unacceptable violation of sovereignty​

Justin Trudeau formally accused India of orchestrating the murder, saying: “Any involvement of a foreign government in the killing of a Canadian citizen on Canadian soil is an unacceptable violation of our sovereignty.”
India’s foreign ministry has denied the claims, calling them “absurd and motivated”.
The row deepened last week after India suspended the issuing of new visas to Canadians in what appeared to be a tit-for-tat retaliation.

Hardeep Singh Nijjar was labelled a 'terrorist mastermind' by New Delhi CREDIT: Jennifer Gauthier/Reuters
Mr Nijjar was a vocal advocate for the Khalistan movement, which calls for the creation of a self-governing Sikh homeland within India.
New Delhi labelled him a terrorist “mastermind” and claimed he was a driving force behind the Khalistan Tiger Force, a separatist group banned under Indian anti-terror laws in February 2023.
An unofficial group whose modus operandi consists of temporarily knocking Indian critics’ websites offline, the Indian Cyber Force broadcasts its efforts through Telegram and Twitter.

Perfect tool for hacktivists​

Brett Callow, a researcher with cyber security company Emsisoft, said: “Given current geopolitical tensions, Canadian organisations – and organisations everywhere, for that matter – should assume that these attacks will continue.
“They’re cheap, easy to carry out, and highly visible. That makes them the perfect tool for hacktivists or, in some cases, states’ cyber operations.”
In recent weeks the Indian Cyber Force has claimed to have taken down the websites of a Canadian hospital, the Bangladeshi police and Indonesia’s equivalent of the SAS.
DDoS attacks of the type deployed by the hacker gang are typically short-lived, lasting hours or days at most. Online criminal gangs maintain networks of hacked computers, known as botnets, which they use to flood targeted websites with millions of requests until the target collapses under the strain.
Most DDoS attacks are a method for internet activists to draw attention to themselves rather than a serious effort to cause damage.
Canada’s Cyber Security Establishment, the country’s equivalent of the UK National Cyber Security Centre, did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
The Indian consulate in London did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

 

[gryphonv]

Did anybody notice?

Was just reading about it.

Curious if it is going to lead to more serious data breaches.

Interesting thing is they categorize it as a DDOS attack. But those types of attacks usually just flood website servers so they are overwhelmed. In this attack they actually managed to change the front page. Which is a little more serious

 

[Good2Golf]

Yes, more than just a DDoS attack to be able to do that. Not that I would expect that much detail in the press, but there are a number of ways to achieve the landing page appearance, but it definitely takes more than flooding the servers with requests. Perhaps Team Trudeau takes this as a mark of pride that even if as a target for hacking, that “Canada’s back!”

 

[gryphonv]

Former Indian diplomat's claims 'troubling example' of disinformation: PMO

The Prime Minister's Office denied an unsubstantiated claim by a former Indian diplomat that Justin Trudeau's plane "was full of cocaine."

torontosun.com

This got a good laugh out of me. Seems Indian propaganda is in full swing.