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What Might Civil War Be Like?

mariomike

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Donald H said:
Trump's entire agenda depends on stirring up racist hate that always was moldering away in the closets of America's south, along with the bedsheets and pointy hats.

shawn5o said:
That's quite the claim Don.

Seems to basically say the same as this,

Brihard said:
They festered and stewed in their rage, and they quietly organized both online and in real life meetups, training camps, etc. They evolved their own ideological ecosystems and leveraged social media to set pages and groups where they could identify prospects to pull into more covert communications circles. And they waited, and then in 2016 they voted for someone who signalled himself sufficient adjacent to or permissive of their beliefs and intolerance. And then they began emerging into the light, now being comfortable enough to begin to out themselves.

None of this stuff happens overnight. Ideological movements build over the course of years, and they wait for their chance.
 

Donald H

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mariomike said:
Seems to basically say the same as this,

My comments were more rhetorically speaking mariomike, while Brihard's came across to me as literallly true. Of course racism wasn't moldering away in closets and it's also likely that Klan costumes weren't moldering away is most closets.

Are you in agreement with racism being Trump's main agenda and that he would have nothing without it?
 

PuckChaser

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Folks, if we want to skirt the rules and start name calling political figures just because this thread is not in the politics board we can happily move it there and start handing out strikes. Lets not drag down what has been some thoughtful and enthusiastic debate with a level of vitriolic discourse that belongs in a sub Reddit echo chamber.

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Remius

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Hamish Seggie said:
Roger that.

Personally I don't actually know what it would be like. Who knows?

Maybe the right wing extremists take on the government and the left wingers like Antifa etc.

It could be bloody.

Or it could be regionalised small affairs.  Like some cities opting to go alone or possibly some states.

Right wing extremists seem to be undre more scrutiny than antifa so the gvt int apparatus likely has a better grip at stopping their activities.  Antifa seems to be more of a flash mob thing, harder to predict.

Also, given how COVID played out and people refusing to wear masks and three weeks into a lock down decide that they couldn't live without their garden centers I doubt it would be a prolonged affair if it went all guns blazing. 
 

NavyShooter

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As seen in the 1800's, a civil war in the US will be bloody.  Brother vs Brother, neighbour vs neighbour. 

The veneer of politeness in society hides our many ills, and some of those are seen in Portland, and Milwaukee.

The question in the back of my mind is - how much of the battle will be an economic one? 

The polarization of the US Society seems to be very much an urban/rural divide.  Looking at voting maps, the 'breadbasket/fly-over' areas are the conservative spaces, while the city centers seem to be liberal.  What happens when the 'breadbaskets' stop sending in the food?  What happens when the oil shipments stop showing up at the gas stations?  What happens when the shelves go bare?  In a free market, there will always be someone willing to make a profit and step into the gap.  In a 'not quite civil war', no-one might be willing.  Or, the rural folks might just stop providing....picture a thousand fields getting plowed under rather than getting harvested.  Picture a thousand oil wells being stopped for 'maintenance'...and not re-starting. 

The 'operations other than war' book is wide and varied, the above probably don't even factor into the normal play-books.

It's a mess down there, and the middle ground, which always used to prevail, is seemingly hijacked by the extremes, and the media seems to be fueling it by slanted reporting from one side or the other.
 

garb811

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"Is President Trump Racist?" tangent split off and merged with the US Presidential Election 2020 thread.

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daftandbarmy

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IMHO, anyone who is convinced a Civil War could break out in the US is either a) insane or b) nuts.

Here's an interesting dialogue, from 2019, discussing the subject:


BU Historian Answers: Are We Headed for Another Civil War?

A recent Washington Post headline says: “In America, talk turns to something not spoken of for 150 years: Civil war.” The story references, among others, Stanford University historian Victor Davis Hanson, who asked in a National Review essay last summer: “How, when, and why has the United States now arrived at the brink of a veritable civil war?” Another Washington Post story reports how Iowa Republican Congressman Steve King recently posted a meme warning that red states have “8 trillion bullets” in the event of a civil war. And a poll conducted last June by Rasmussen Reports found that 31 percent of probable US voters surveyed believe “it’s likely that the United States will experience a second civil war sometime in the next five years.”

Is that legitimately where we stand today in the era of Donald Trump, particularly in the wake of the ramped-up rhetoric stemming from Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s report on Russia’s interference in the 2016 election and whether the Trump campaign coordinated with Moscow, or is Civil War talk just crazy hyperbole?

BU Today put three questions to Nina Silber, a College of Arts & Sciences professor of history and American studies and the current president of the Society of Civil War Historians. Silber has done extensive research on the Civil War over more than two decades and has written several books on the subject, including Divided Houses: Gender and the Civil War (1992), Daughters of the Union: Northern Women Fight the Civil War (2005), and most recently, This War Ain’t Over: Fighting the Civil War in New Deal America (University of North Carolina Press, 2018). Along with her teaching and research, she has worked on numerous public history projects, including museum exhibitions at the Gettysburg National Military Park and film projects on the Civil War and Reconstruction eras.

So if anyone would have a knowledgeable perspective on the question of whether we are headed for civil war, it’s Silber. Read her answers about the proliferation of headlines referencing the possibility of another civil war.

http://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/are-we-headed-for-another-civil-war/
 

Donald H

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daftandbarmy said:
IMHO, anyone who is convinced a Civil War could break out in the US is either a) insane or b) nuts.

Agreed, but there does seem to be a possibility that neither side is going to accept defeat in the upcoming election and then that could result in divisiveness that was at the root of the reason for their previous civil war.

So California for instance, that is usually pretty solid Dem, would those people accept Trump or would they be moved to action that would allow them to reject Trump.

Division of America could possibly be accomplished without a bloody civil war.

And of course the opposite could be true if Biden wins and one of the southern states that is solid right won't accept the outcome.
 

daftandbarmy

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Donald H said:
Agreed, but there does seem to be a possibility that neither side is going to accept defeat in the upcoming election and then that could result in divisiveness that was at the root of the reason for their previous civil war.

So California for instance, that is usually pretty solid Dem, would those people accept Trump or would they be moved to action that would allow them to reject Trump.

Division of America could possibly be accomplished without a bloody civil war.

And of course the opposite could be true if Biden wins and one of the southern states that is solid right won't accept the outcome.

And even if one of those states 'doesn't accept' the outcome, they will not declare war on Washington. I guarantee it.  :facepalm:
 

garb811

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Second clean-up today due to people wanting to discuss the US Presidential Election in this thread.

Last chance, if you want to keep moving this topic into that direction, the entire thread will move to the Global Politics sub-forum.

- Milnet.ca Staff
 

Fishbone Jones

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Sorry. It's the only one I can participate in. Didn't  mean to drag anything off topic. Back to listening silence. :salute:
 

Brad Sallows

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I doubt any kind of civil war starts.  Too little of the country is actively involved in any kind of mere unrest, let alone violence.

What I think happens is that neighbourhood protective associations arise.  The informal kind - no sign out front, no listed contact information - with an office in the back of a restaurant, and a couple of guys named Victor on staff.  When outsiders come into the neighbourhood to stir up shit, one or two of the ringleaders "disappear".  Word gets around; the shit-disturbers leave the neighbourhood alone because they prefer leather boots to concrete ones.  Other neighbourhoods take note.  New associations are started, maybe some existing ones expand.  Their source of revenue is subscriptions paid monthly by local merchants.

Etc.

There will be a handful of cities which are exceptions, and remain shit-shows until the lawful authorities grow a spine.  Portland, maybe.
 

mariomike

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Brad Sallows said:
There will be a handful of cities which are exceptions, and remain shit-shows until the lawful authorities grow a spine.  Portland, maybe.

As far as Portland is concerned, Lt. Rich Chatman, a spokesperson for Portland Fire & Rescue had this to say,

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/sep/01/donald-trump/we-are-not-fire-authorities-dispute-trumps-false-c/

P.S. That is NOT to suggest there is EVER  any excuse to start ( an unlawful ) fire.

 

Weinie

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So as long as only a certain portion of the downtown core is regularly on fire, it's OK. Good call.
 

QV

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mariomike said:
As far as Portland is concerned, Lt. Rich Chatman, a spokesperson for Portland Fire & Rescue had this to say,

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/sep/01/donald-trump/we-are-not-fire-authorities-dispute-trumps-false-c/

P.S. That is NOT to suggest there is EVER  any excuse to start ( an unlawful ) fire.

Breaking news!  An eccentric Trump exaggerates!
 

mariomike

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Weinie and QV, I figured there would be some typing within seconds of me posting.

So, I was careful to include this,

mariomike said:
P.S. That is NOT to suggest there is EVER  any excuse to start ( an unlawful ) fire.

Are you sure it is not US Team Red supporters setting them under "False Flag"?

For readers unfamiliar with the term,

A false flag operation is an act committed with the intent of disguising the actual source of responsibility and pinning blame on a second party.


 

OldSolduer

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mariomike said:
Weinie and QV, I figured there would be some typing within seconds of me posting.

So, I was careful to include this,

Are you sure it is not US Team Red supporters setting them under "False Flag"?

For readers unfamiliar with the term,

An example is mortaring your own people, kill a few and blame it on the other side, ala the Balkans in the 90s.
 

Weinie

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You posted it. You are now claiming maybe it is a false flag. I will refrain from the multiple comments that have wracked through my grey matter.
 

Brad Sallows

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>Are you sure it is not US Team Red supporters setting them under "False Flag"?

No, but there are never enough conspiracy theories.  Run with it.
 

Donald H

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Hamish Seggie said:
An example is mortaring your own people, kill a few and blame it on the other side, ala the Balkans in the 90s.

As an example, the massacre at Racak that was on a larger scale? Most likely the main reason why the Kosovo war happened.
 
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