What keeps or kept you in the CAF?

[misratah500]

I told myself if I could get through the first 10 years of my career, I would do that last 10 years. For me things are now just economic. I'm close to getting my 20 year pension, I make great money, the benefits are top notch for now and the stability is key considering today's job market.

The RCN as an organization does not really appeal to me whatsoever any more. Seems to be more focused on style over substance and I have lost faith in most of the leadership which comes and goes and means little to me. A lot of my friends in the RCN feel the same way too, we just all seem to be here for our own reasons now punching the clock.  If I was joining up now I doubt I would do the 25 years required to retire.

We haven't commissioned a single surface ship in my 16 years in the navy (Orcas dont' count) and I'm not sure if we'll commission one before I retire in 2020. That's pathetic.

Back in the days when I was an AB in my section the PO2's ran it and that's how it was. The PO2 had the power of his section in our department and decided what the work priorities were, gave time off to those who deserved it and allowed people time for appointments or what not. You kept it in the section. The PO2 dealt with the discipline and watched his guys backs and they watched each others. Now everything has to practically go through the Div O and the PO2's and MS have no power at all. I feel the navy treats people like children these days.

I don't feel there are really any opportunities to be a good leader of men, it's all about personnel management and being a manager and covering your ass. I hate that way of doing business. I want to be inspired by the people above me, I want to work for them and strive to be the best I can be, but all I see is weakness, dithering and lack of direction in my leadership. Too many people are afraid to make a decision because they don't want to be wrong, so it's safer sometimes to just not make it.

I am a pessimist at heart it seems and I just don't see great things coming down the pipeline for the navy. The AOPS are garbage MCDV redux ships that we don't need and should be sent to the Coast Guard, the new tankers will be years off and be way over budget. The frigates will be driven into the ground like the 280's were cause the CSC project will most likely fall way behind and I highly doubt we replace the ships 1 for 1. Why is it with each generation of procurement through the last decades do we keep shrinking in assets. Can't we ever grow in assets. (Hulls, planes, tanks etc)

I swear it would take a Pearl Harbour type event to decimate our navy in combat to finally force the government to build a real combat capable navy. Someone has to die before real change would happen.

/endrant

 

[daftandbarmy]

Fun.  :nod:

 

[FortYorkRifleman]

Would you guys say morale is dependent on which branch you are in now?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Would you guys say morale is dependent on which branch you are in now?

No.

Leadership and the behaviour of your peers, as well as your own mindset, is usually the greatest factors in morale - good or bad.

 

[Pusser]

I told myself if I could get through the first 10 years of my career, I would do that last 10 years. For me things are now just economic. I'm close to getting my 20 year pension, I make great money, the benefits are top notch for now and the stability is key considering today's job market.

The RCN as an organization does not really appeal to me whatsoever any more. Seems to be more focused on style over substance and I have lost faith in most of the leadership which comes and goes and means little to me. A lot of my friends in the RCN feel the same way too, we just all seem to be here for our own reasons now punching the clock.  If I was joining up now I doubt I would do the 25 years required to retire.

We haven't commissioned a single surface ship in my 16 years in the navy (Orcas dont' count) and I'm not sure if we'll commission one before I retire in 2020. That's pathetic.

Back in the days when I was an AB in my section the PO2's ran it and that's how it was. The PO2 had the power of his section in our department and decided what the work priorities were, gave time off to those who deserved it and allowed people time for appointments or what not. You kept it in the section. The PO2 dealt with the discipline and watched his guys backs and they watched each others. Now everything has to practically go through the Div O and the PO2's and MS have no power at all. I feel the navy treats people like children these days.

I don't feel there are really any opportunities to be a good leader of men, it's all about personnel management and being a manager and covering your ***. I hate that way of doing business. I want to be inspired by the people above me, I want to work for them and strive to be the best I can be, but all I see is weakness, dithering and lack of direction in my leadership. Too many people are afraid to make a decision because they don't want to be wrong, so it's safer sometimes to just not make it.

I am a pessimist at heart it seems and I just don't see great things coming down the pipeline for the navy. The AOPS are garbage MCDV redux ships that we don't need and should be sent to the Coast Guard, the new tankers will be years off and be way over budget. The frigates will be driven into the ground like the 280's were cause the CSC project will most likely fall way behind and I highly doubt we replace the ships 1 for 1. Why is it with each generation of procurement through the last decades do we keep shrinking in assets. Can't we ever grow in assets. (Hulls, planes, tanks etc)

I swear it would take a Pearl Harbour type event to decimate our navy in combat to finally force the government to build a real combat capable navy. Someone has to die before real change would happen.

/endrant

There is a lot of truth in what you say.  In my view, the Navy is not as much fun as it used to be.  However, I will point out that you can pluck anyone from any era in history and he/she would have an almost identical rant.  I'm sure there were sailors in Caesar's navy who complained about the lack of equipment, poor leadership and new ships.  Plus ça change, plus ça la meme chose.  Or, better yet, my favourite:

The navy ain't what it used to be - and never was...

 

[mariomike]

I told myself if I could get through the first 10 years of my career, I would do that last 10 years. 

Assuming your service has been in the Regular Force, would you not consider "max-ing out" your pension to 70 per cent?

 

[Ayrsayle]

Still challenged by the job - and by the people I've been able to serve with.  By and large I'd say it is due to the people and the sense of professional challenge.  Our profession has more then its fair share of warts and issues, but having worked civy side the grass isn't greener.  I feel we get paid quite well (benefits, etc) for the amount of training we receive, but I don't know too many that choose the military solely for the money.

May sound naive, but I genuinely enjoy making a difference.  Sometimes it's not always clear what the difference is, or how positive it is - but I'd rather be involved in the process then critiquing from the sidelines.

 

[Pronto215]

I think most of the issue stems from a lack of identity for the CAF as a whole, not to mention the fact that it seems like the officer corps is trying to keep NCO's and NCM's under their thumb. I am not going to sit here and say that all officers are bad however I will state a lack of leadership in the officer ranks mixed with pension punching NCO's makes for leadership gaps. As for why I have stayed in and ran the gaunlet of S#it, its because I love tours, courses and all the crazy moments that come along with the job. The money is less than where it should be by far and comraderie seems more of a buzz word for the .com's along with morale and welfare.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I think most of the issue stems from a lack of identity for the CAF as a whole, not to mention the fact that it seems like the officer corps is trying to keep NCO's and NCM's under their thumb. I am not going to sit here and say that all officers are bad however I will state a lack of leadership in the officer ranks mixed with pension punching NCO's makes for leadership gaps. As for why I have stayed in and ran the gaunlet of S#it, its because I love tours, courses and all the crazy moments that come along with the job. The money is less than where it should be by far and comraderie seems more of a buzz word for the .com's along with morale and welfare.

Just a historical note: military pay has almost never been what it "should be," but, equally, professional military forces have, more often than not, performed well, very well, usually surprisingly well despite low pay and (too often) indifferent leadership. The "mission" ("the tours  ... and all the crazy moments") creates, I think, it's own form of camaraderie ...

    “We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.”
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ― Konstantin Jireček

    ... and the people, especially the NCOs, then "dig in" and "get 'er done," for themselves, for their mates and for their own personal pride. (In a long career I concluded that most of us didn't serve Canada or some wooly political ideals like "peace," we served our mates, the guys (and gals) next to us in the ranks (and even in the office, later in life) and we did (and you do) the "impossible" just because we could and because we took personal pride in doing that.)

 

[Pronto215]

Just a historical note: military pay has almost never been what it "should be," but, equally, professional military forces have, more often than not, performed well, very well, usually surprisingly well despite low pay and (too often) indifferent leadership. The "mission" ("the tours  ... and all the crazy moments") creates, I think, it's own form of camaraderie ...

    “We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.”
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ― Konstantin Jireček

    ... and the people, especially the NCOs, then "dig in" and "get 'er done," for themselves, for their mates and for their own personal pride. (In a long career I concluded that most of us didn't serve Canada or some wooly political ideals like "peace," we served our mates, the guys (and gals) next to us in the ranks (and even in the office, later in life) and we did (and you do) the "impossible" just because we could and because we took personal pride in doing that.)

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I think to sum up my point is there is no identity because there is no mission to rally behind cupled with the lack of money is having a lot of trickle effect that is sending more and more people for the hills.

 

[George Wallace]

Just a historical note: military pay has almost never been what it "should be," but, equally, professional military forces have, more often than not, performed well, very well, usually surprisingly well despite low pay and (too often) indifferent leadership. The "mission" ("the tours  ... and all the crazy moments") creates, I think, it's own form of camaraderie ...

    “We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.”
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ― Konstantin Jireček

    ... and the people, especially the NCOs, then "dig in" and "get 'er done," for themselves, for their mates and for their own personal pride. (In a long career I concluded that most of us didn't serve Canada or some wooly political ideals like "peace," we served our mates, the guys (and gals) next to us in the ranks (and even in the office, later in life) and we did (and you do) the "impossible" just because we could and because we took personal pride in doing that.)

Well said E.R.C.  The amounts of camaraderie one finds in the military will vary greatly from Trade to Trade, and is probably felt the strongest in the Combat Arms Trades (of all Elements) due to their working closely as a 'team' in the performance of their duties.  No matter what the Trade though, military and former military maintain bonds with their comrades that will not be found in any other organization.  These bonds are witnessed here on this site, on FaceBook sites, at the Royal Canadian Legion and other Veteran's Associations, and often at impromptu and/or informal gatherings at former unit or Course gatherings; not to mention Veteran's gatherings during Nov 11 and other remembrance ceremonies and occasions. 

 

[Harrigan]

Just a historical note: military pay has almost never been what it "should be," but, equally, professional military forces have, more often than not, performed well, very well, usually surprisingly well despite low pay and (too often) indifferent leadership. The "mission" ("the tours  ... and all the crazy moments") creates, I think, it's own form of camaraderie ...

    “We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.”
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      ― Konstantin Jireček

    ... and the people, especially the NCOs, then "dig in" and "get 'er done," for themselves, for their mates and for their own personal pride. (In a long career I concluded that most of us didn't serve Canada or some wooly political ideals like "peace," we served our mates, the guys (and gals) next to us in the ranks (and even in the office, later in life) and we did (and you do) the "impossible" just because we could and because we took personal pride in doing that.)

Hear, Hear!

I suspect that people join up for different reasons than they stay in.  The value and importance of camaraderie and fellowship gained 'in the mob' is not something that can be easily conceptualized before one walks into the recruiting centre. 

There haven't been many negative responses to this question yet, which is good to see.  Of course, those of us who frequent this site no doubt do so because we have fond attachment to the CAF.  If we didn't, we likely would not be on this site. 

Ultimately, people can make of their time in the CAF what they want to make of it.  One can be miserable anywhere, and one can be happy anywhere too - it just takes the right attitude.

Harrigan

 

[FortYorkRifleman]

I often wonder if there's some inherent desire/pull for people, especially men, to serve in the military. Since I began the process to re-enroll and back during my first time in I always had people, again mostly men, approach me or during work hours at my civilian job say "they wish they had joined" or "it's one of my biggest regrets not joining" or most frequently "it's too late for me otherwise I'd do it now."

I think you have to love the lifestyle and the job, or maybe one over the other. I'll figure that out once I'm over the fence and on that side but right now there's nothing more that I want than to be an Infanteer.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I often wonder if there's some inherent desire/pull for people, especially men, to serve in the military. Since I began the process to re-enroll and back during my first time in I always had people, again mostly men, approach me or during work hours at my civilian job say "they wish they had joined" or "it's one of my biggest regrets not joining" or most frequently "it's too late for me otherwise I'd do it now."

I think you have to love the lifestyle and the job, or maybe one over the other. I'll figure that out once I'm over the fence and on that side but right now there's nothing more that I want than to be an Infanteer.

You mean like Samuel Johnson said, about 250 year ago?

                 
                   

          "Every man thinks meanly of himself for
          not having been a soldier, or not having
                              been at sea."

 

[mariomike]

No matter what the Trade though, military and former military maintain bonds with their comrades that will not be found in any other organization.   

Not to disagree with the above, but I believe similar bonds can also be found in the Emergency Services. Although on a much smaller scale.

There are about 700,000 CAF veterans in Canada. Add to that the number of currently serving members.
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/news/general-statistics

One reason for Emergency Services being close knit was that we had much smaller departments and jurisdictions ( 243 square miles ). Transfers were voluntary. Your partner, station and platoon was permanent.
All members were full-time only, and almost all stayed on for the whole ride.
It was ( and still is ) a "closed shop" for almost a century, so that may have had something to do with the mentality.
The department has done more, officially and unofficially, to include, honour ( and help those who needed it ) retired members than I can mention here.
My late uncle was a Metro Police pensioner, and he told me they were also good. The Fire service is legendary for taking care of their pensioners.

These bonds are witnessed here on this site, on FaceBook sites, at the Royal Canadian Legion and other Veteran's Associations, and often at impromptu and/or informal gatherings at former unit or Course gatherings; not to mention Veteran's gatherings during Nov 11 and other remembrance ceremonies and occasions.

From what I have read of the 17-page "Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL withers?" discussion, perhaps young people prefer the Internet.

I personally look forward to our scheduled luncheons and informal get togethers with former co-workers.

 

[FortYorkRifleman]

You mean like Samuel Johnson said, about 250 year ago?

                 
                   

          "Every man thinks meanly of himself for
          not having been a soldier, or not having
                              been at sea."

Yeah that sums it up.

 

[RocketRichard]

Too many differences between military and emergency services to enumerate here...

 

[mariomike]

Too many differences between military and emergency services to enumerate here...

Of course you are right. I was simply replying to this: "bonds with their comrades that will not be found in any other organization."

 

[Pronto215]

I feel like there is a growing lack of comraderie in the CAF currently. It might be in part to the new generation but when I first joined it seemed like everyone wanted to get together at the mess or bbq's but it seems like those days are long gone. Maybe it has to do with drinking, frat, I don't know, however there is clear disconnect.

 

[mariomike]

I feel like there is a growing lack of comraderie in the CAF currently.

I was a reservist and have been out a long time. But, from what I have read on here, you may have a point.

Camaraderie
http://army.ca/forums/threads/115536.0

Camaraderie and brotherhood in the CF.
https://army.ca/forums/threads/111347.0

Fellowship, fraternity/brotherhood and Camaraderie in non-combat arms trades?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/86552.0/nowap.html