Weapon Myths
- Thread starter CADPAT SOLDIER
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Now can you show us a pic of mortar barrel rifling? Either 81mm or 82mm.....it's new to me. ;D
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Centurian1985 said:
One more time!!
7.62 x 39mm, and 7.62 x 54mm do NOT, yes do NOT interchange in any NATO calibre rifles, and vice versa.
End of story! Anyone tells ya different, they're full of shyte.
About 81/82mm mortars, no there is no rifling PERIOD!
I think unless one knows WTF they are talking about, to as they say, stay in your lane. Its you credibility, not ours.
In disbelief yet again,
Wes
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SO I'll admit to be WHOLLY out of my depth in this conversation....
BUT, I'm really ver curious, and would like someone to correct me (pointing to FACTUAL information from Specifications if at all possible)...
Is it true that often .308 can be chambered and fired by a 7.62 NATO weapon, headspace depending?
Here is the best information I have found:
(This was posted on http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm)
Jerry Kuhnhausen, in his classic Shop Manual (available from Fulton Armory; see the M1 Rifle Parts & Accessories or M14 Rifle Parts and Accessories Pages under Books) has published a somewhat controversial recommendation concerning .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO ammo, headspace & chambers. I broached the subject with him some months ago. He had his plate full, so we decided to chat on this in the future. When we do I'll report the results of our conversation.
I completely agree with Jerry that if you have a chamber with headspace much in excess of 1.636 (say, 1.638, SAAMI field reject), you must use only U.S. or NATO Mil Spec Ammo (always marked 7.62mm & with a cross enclosed by a circle) since the NATO mil spec calls for a far more "robust" brass case than often found in commercial (read .308 Winchester) cartridges. It is precisely why Lake City brass is so highly sought. Lake City brass is Nato spec and reloadable (most NATO is not reloadable, rather it is Berdan primed). Indeed, cheaper commercial ammo can fail at the 1.638 headspace (e.g., UMC) in an M14/M1 Garand. Many military gas guns (e.g., M14 Rifles & M60 Machine guns) run wildly long headspace by commercial (SAAMI) standards (U.S. Military field reject limit for the M60 & M14 is 1.6455, nearly 16 thousandths beyond commercial (SAAMI) GO, & nearly 8 thousandths beyond commercial (SAAMI) field reject limit!).
I also agree that 1.631-1.632 is a near perfect headspace for an M14/M1A or M1 Garand chambered in .308 Winchester. But I think that it also near perfect for 7.62mm NATO!
I have measured many, many types/manufacturers of commercial and NATO ammo via cartridge "headspace" gauges as well as "in rifle" checks. If anything, I have found various Nato ammo to be in much tighter headspace/chamber compliance than commercial ammo. Indeed, sometimes commercial ammo can not be chambered "by hand" in an M14/M1A with, say, 1.631 headspace (bolt will not close completely by gentle hand manipulation on a stripped bolt, although it will close & function when chambered by the force of the rifle's loading inertia), though I have never seen this with NATO spec ammo. I.e., if anything, NATO ammo seems to hold at the minimum SAAMI cartridge headspace of 1.629-1.630, better than some commercial ammo!
So, why set a very long 1.636 headspace in an M14/M1A or M1 Garand? It probably is the conflict mentioned above. Military headspace gauges say one thing, SAAMI headspace gauges say something else, as do the spec's/compliance covering ammo. In a court of law, who will prevail? I think Kuhnhausen gave all those who do this work a safe way out. However, I believe it not in your, or your rifle's, best interest. Whether you have a NATO chambered barrel (M14/M1 Garand G.I. ".308 Win."/7.62mm NATO barrels all have NATO chambers), or a .308 Winchester chamber, keep the headspace within SAAMI limits (1.630 GO, 1.634 NO GO, 1.638 FIELD REJECT). This subject is a bit confusing, and for me difficult to explain in a one way conversation!
Clint McKee
Would greatly appreciate your input,
Regards,
YS
>
Living and Working in NZ, missing my snow covered home...
BUT, I'm really ver curious, and would like someone to correct me (pointing to FACTUAL information from Specifications if at all possible)...
Is it true that often .308 can be chambered and fired by a 7.62 NATO weapon, headspace depending?
Here is the best information I have found:
(This was posted on http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm)
Jerry Kuhnhausen, in his classic Shop Manual (available from Fulton Armory; see the M1 Rifle Parts & Accessories or M14 Rifle Parts and Accessories Pages under Books) has published a somewhat controversial recommendation concerning .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO ammo, headspace & chambers. I broached the subject with him some months ago. He had his plate full, so we decided to chat on this in the future. When we do I'll report the results of our conversation.
I completely agree with Jerry that if you have a chamber with headspace much in excess of 1.636 (say, 1.638, SAAMI field reject), you must use only U.S. or NATO Mil Spec Ammo (always marked 7.62mm & with a cross enclosed by a circle) since the NATO mil spec calls for a far more "robust" brass case than often found in commercial (read .308 Winchester) cartridges. It is precisely why Lake City brass is so highly sought. Lake City brass is Nato spec and reloadable (most NATO is not reloadable, rather it is Berdan primed). Indeed, cheaper commercial ammo can fail at the 1.638 headspace (e.g., UMC) in an M14/M1 Garand. Many military gas guns (e.g., M14 Rifles & M60 Machine guns) run wildly long headspace by commercial (SAAMI) standards (U.S. Military field reject limit for the M60 & M14 is 1.6455, nearly 16 thousandths beyond commercial (SAAMI) GO, & nearly 8 thousandths beyond commercial (SAAMI) field reject limit!).
I also agree that 1.631-1.632 is a near perfect headspace for an M14/M1A or M1 Garand chambered in .308 Winchester. But I think that it also near perfect for 7.62mm NATO!
I have measured many, many types/manufacturers of commercial and NATO ammo via cartridge "headspace" gauges as well as "in rifle" checks. If anything, I have found various Nato ammo to be in much tighter headspace/chamber compliance than commercial ammo. Indeed, sometimes commercial ammo can not be chambered "by hand" in an M14/M1A with, say, 1.631 headspace (bolt will not close completely by gentle hand manipulation on a stripped bolt, although it will close & function when chambered by the force of the rifle's loading inertia), though I have never seen this with NATO spec ammo. I.e., if anything, NATO ammo seems to hold at the minimum SAAMI cartridge headspace of 1.629-1.630, better than some commercial ammo!
So, why set a very long 1.636 headspace in an M14/M1A or M1 Garand? It probably is the conflict mentioned above. Military headspace gauges say one thing, SAAMI headspace gauges say something else, as do the spec's/compliance covering ammo. In a court of law, who will prevail? I think Kuhnhausen gave all those who do this work a safe way out. However, I believe it not in your, or your rifle's, best interest. Whether you have a NATO chambered barrel (M14/M1 Garand G.I. ".308 Win."/7.62mm NATO barrels all have NATO chambers), or a .308 Winchester chamber, keep the headspace within SAAMI limits (1.630 GO, 1.634 NO GO, 1.638 FIELD REJECT). This subject is a bit confusing, and for me difficult to explain in a one way conversation!
Clint McKee
Would greatly appreciate your input,
Regards,
YS
>
Living and Working in NZ, missing my snow covered home...
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There are different HS gauges for 7.62mm rilfes, etc. Different measurements for the PH M82, the L1A1 SLR, the AWF sniper rifle, the MAG 58 and M60 MGs.
As for Garands, although they do exist in 7.62x51mm in a modified format, the prime cartridge used is the 7.62 x 63mm (.30 M2 AKA .30-06, which just had its 100th anniversary of service).
In lay terms, .308Win is a civvy designation of 7.62 x 51mm. Back in Canada, I had a minty Winchester M14, fitted w/selector lock. Before it went restricted, I used to hunt happily with factory .308 ammo. Never a stoppage.
Don't loose any sleep using factory IVI 150gr KKSPs or some surplus Australian F4 Ball in any .308WIN calibre rifle.
I am in Shyteland currently, and I have no data at hand, but Kevin will fill in the blanks required.
Cheers,
Wes
As for Garands, although they do exist in 7.62x51mm in a modified format, the prime cartridge used is the 7.62 x 63mm (.30 M2 AKA .30-06, which just had its 100th anniversary of service).
In lay terms, .308Win is a civvy designation of 7.62 x 51mm. Back in Canada, I had a minty Winchester M14, fitted w/selector lock. Before it went restricted, I used to hunt happily with factory .308 ammo. Never a stoppage.
Don't loose any sleep using factory IVI 150gr KKSPs or some surplus Australian F4 Ball in any .308WIN calibre rifle.
I am in Shyteland currently, and I have no data at hand, but Kevin will fill in the blanks required.
Cheers,
Wes
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Jane's Infantry Weapons
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TDA 120 mm MO 120 RT rifled mortar
Description
The TDA 120 mm MO 120 RT rifled mortar is probably the most complex of current mortars and in some aspects approaches very closely to the gun. It is rated by many observers to be the most efficient weapon of its type, and more than 1,000 units have been produced. These serve with 24 armed forces in 22 countries, excluding licence-produced models.
This mortar can be fired only off its wheels and can be deployed only in areas where the towing vehicle has access. It is a massive piece of equipment which fires a heavy bomb out to 13,000 m at rates of fire of up to 24 rds/min. It has a rifled barrel and is muzzle loading. To overcome the windage problem, the ammunition uses a pre-engraved driving band.
Main components are the barrel, the cradle, the undercarriage and the baseplate. The barrel is a substantial forging, with the towing eye at the muzzle. The outside is radially finned to increase the surface area for heat dissipation. The interior is rifled and, with the pre-engraved driving band, imparts rotation to the shell.
The cradle consists of a steel tube connecting the two wheels and carrying the torsion-bar suspension. The traversing gears are totally enclosed to exclude foreign matter. The elevating handwheel rotates a worm-and-gear assembly which transmits motion, through a multiple disc clutch, to a pinion meshing with the rack formed by the barrel finning. The collar sliding along the barrel produces the necessary change of elevation. The cross-levelling shaft, actuated by the upper left handwheel, tilts the traversing assembly together with the collar to which the sight is attached. The baseplate is very heavy, with massive webs on the underside. After a prolonged period of firing, the baseplate can be extricated by using the barrel as a lever and employing the towing vehicle to pull the baseplate up.
Although the MO 120 RT is a rifled mortar, it will fire smoothbore bombs except those types having spring-loaded tailfin assemblies with straight fins. Smoothbore bombs are frequently used to `bed in' the baseplate (1 round charge 3, 1 charge 5, 1 charge 7) and also to provide cheaper training. Bombs produced specifically for the MO 120 RT are equipped with a tail tube carrying the primary and secondary cartridges. This tube is ejected just after the bomb has left the mortar and falls about 100 m from the muzzle. An anti-armour bomb has also been developed.
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TDA 120 mm MO 120 RT rifled mortar
Description
The TDA 120 mm MO 120 RT rifled mortar is probably the most complex of current mortars and in some aspects approaches very closely to the gun. It is rated by many observers to be the most efficient weapon of its type, and more than 1,000 units have been produced. These serve with 24 armed forces in 22 countries, excluding licence-produced models.
This mortar can be fired only off its wheels and can be deployed only in areas where the towing vehicle has access. It is a massive piece of equipment which fires a heavy bomb out to 13,000 m at rates of fire of up to 24 rds/min. It has a rifled barrel and is muzzle loading. To overcome the windage problem, the ammunition uses a pre-engraved driving band.
Main components are the barrel, the cradle, the undercarriage and the baseplate. The barrel is a substantial forging, with the towing eye at the muzzle. The outside is radially finned to increase the surface area for heat dissipation. The interior is rifled and, with the pre-engraved driving band, imparts rotation to the shell.
The cradle consists of a steel tube connecting the two wheels and carrying the torsion-bar suspension. The traversing gears are totally enclosed to exclude foreign matter. The elevating handwheel rotates a worm-and-gear assembly which transmits motion, through a multiple disc clutch, to a pinion meshing with the rack formed by the barrel finning. The collar sliding along the barrel produces the necessary change of elevation. The cross-levelling shaft, actuated by the upper left handwheel, tilts the traversing assembly together with the collar to which the sight is attached. The baseplate is very heavy, with massive webs on the underside. After a prolonged period of firing, the baseplate can be extricated by using the barrel as a lever and employing the towing vehicle to pull the baseplate up.
Although the MO 120 RT is a rifled mortar, it will fire smoothbore bombs except those types having spring-loaded tailfin assemblies with straight fins. Smoothbore bombs are frequently used to `bed in' the baseplate (1 round charge 3, 1 charge 5, 1 charge 7) and also to provide cheaper training. Bombs produced specifically for the MO 120 RT are equipped with a tail tube carrying the primary and secondary cartridges. This tube is ejected just after the bomb has left the mortar and falls about 100 m from the muzzle. An anti-armour bomb has also been developed.
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Shamrock said:
Hmmm, by the power of Google:
:
http://www.armada.ch/98-5/001d.htm
Same company. Same mortar.
Pics? No thanks, I've seen it. For everyone else:
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Infidel-6 said:
Thank you for my laugh of the day!
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paracowboy said:
I would take the burn an dthe hard times later, and raise my hand in the class and point out he should do more research. And the information he is giving is a myth. Wrong information is wrong information.. not matter who comes from, and if it wrecks his class.. them its his fault for not researching. Being out ranks is no reason to let this con't. If he's one those of people who thinks being corrected in a diplomatic way in the way is wrong.. he's the same person who would make your life hell if pointed it out, outside of class. Part of being a teacher or an instructor is being open to the input of class.
The only time I would not do this, is durning basic. Any other time is fair game. Of course I've not come across a instructor who was so poorly informed on his subject.
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Old Sweat said:
Crap! I should have checked my text before I posted that. Huge friggin error, you are right, I should have said smoothbore, not rifling.
(Edit - many swear words...I cannot believe how I got that mixed up...)
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Centurian1985 said:
That's odd, only a few days ago you told us that:
Centurian1985 said:
And you even forgot whether the weapon was smooth-bored or rifled. Maybe your "gung-ho Airborne WO" should have been more concerned with your knowledge and skills in your primary job during that period.
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Oh, come on, it was sixteen years ago. It only proves I'm human, can make mistakes, and that some information can get mixed up if not used for a long period of time.
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