Victimization of Veterans

[TCM621]

Some people in this thread seem to be mistaking reason for excuse. Unless this was a case of psychotic break, or something similar, where he didn't know what he was doing, he was responsible for his actions. That doesn't mean that mental illness,TBI, the lack of resources from Veterans affairs, etc. did not contribute to the situation. At this point people are dead. The murderer in this case already paid the ultimate price at his own hand, perhaps to balance the scale (in his mind at least) for what he had done. We will never know.  All we can do at this point is to do all we can to prevent this from happening to anyone else in this situation. That involves finding the reasons it happened.

Earlier the Colton Bushie trial was brought up. There were a lot of lesson to be learned from that incident. Like don't get drunk and attempt to steal a car from a rural property owner. Or if you plan to own a gun or protection, ensure it is in working condition and you have serviceable ammunition.

We can lament the fact that one our brothers in arms fell so far. We can lament the fact that it may have been preventable had our Veterans services not been so poor. We can lament the fact that some one who cared enough to attempt to help him paid the ultimate sacrifice.

 

[Journeyman]

But unless you've ever had to deal with a major depressive disorder, really, who are you to judge?

      :stars:

I've mulled over my response for a day now, trying to avoid contravening the site's personal attack regulations.  Were it not for the solemn nature of the topic, your comment would be laugh-in-your-face... irrational.  << not my first choice word

In your mind, to be 'qualified' to make any sort of judgement here, one must have dealt with a major depressive disorder;  I assume you mean wrestling with such demons personally, and not merely  dealing with it through close friends and associates.  I must therefore presume that my involvement with soldier suicide Boards of Inquiry, time working with the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research, and personally dealing with friends and troops just isn't enough for me to have thoughts on the matter.

But that isn't how society learns and evolves.  While I wasn't a German prison camp guard in 1943 Poland. I didn't participate in the Selma-to-Montgomery marches in 1965, or more recently, I've never been a Saskatchewan farmer or an indigenous kid with skewed sensibilities... yet through reading and thinking I somehow  have opinions on all of them -- maybe even somewhat informed.


As for judging the action, not the person, it's murder.  Not judging the person, but judging the PTSD apologists, I don't think the overwhelming number of personnel (regardless of PTSD or not) need people presuming that we're all murdering psychopaths-in-waiting because some individuals will blithely dismiss these events as "well, he had PTSD; who are you to judge?"

Really.  :2c:

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

http://calgarysun.com/news/crime/marlborough-park-murder-suspect-shot-by-police-west-of-edmonton

Is anyone here going to argue on his behalf or just state that it's good that he's dead??  Yup, that's what I thought.....

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Unless this was a case of psychotic break, or something similar, where he didn't know what he was doing, he was responsible for his actions. That doesn't mean that mental illness,TBI, the lack of resources from Veterans affairs, etc. did not contribute to the situation. At this point people are dead. The murderer in this case already paid the ultimate price at his own hand, perhaps to balance the scale (in his mind at least) for what he had done.

I think those are good points.

We will never know. 

This is the second most important fact in this case, IMO.  This is, at this time, the most important point in the thread.  Everything else other than 'he committed murder then suicide' is subjective.

 

[jollyjacktar]

http://calgarysun.com/news/crime/marlborough-park-murder-suspect-shot-by-police-west-of-edmonton

Is anyone here going to argue on his behalf or just state that it's good that he's dead??  Yup, that's what I thought.....

And, l see no mention of mental health problems... so, your point is????

 

[Eye In The Sky]

And, l see no mention of mental health problems... so, your point is????

Comparing apples to bowling balls 

 

[Kat Stevens]

Must have had MH issues, did you see that hairdo?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

And, l see no mention of mental health problems... so, your point is????

Peoples reactions.....which would include your assumption of none.

 

[brihard]

This is the second most important fact in this case, IMO.  This is, at this time, the most important point in the thread.  Everything else other than 'he committed murder then suicide' is subjective.

Right, but it’s not like PTSD is a total mystery. Symptomology and diagnosis is quite well established. Our sample here is not limited to PTSD sufferers who then commit murder and then suicide- many, many people have suffered and have been studied. Across all the many studies of PTSD, psychosis and automatism are not in there as established symptoms. So while in absolute terms there’s some subjectivity, there is a pretty good degree of confidence that PTSD does not do to a person what it would need to do to absolve them of responsibility. Enough so that I’m not close to comfortable saying murder can be excused by mental illness here.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Peoples reactions.....which would include your assumption of none.

Sorry, still not following you???

None, what???

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Right, but it’s not like PTSD is a total mystery. Symptomology and diagnosis is quite well established. Our sample here is not limited to PTSD sufferers who then commit murder and then suicide- many, many people have suffered and have been studied. Across all the many studies of PTSD, psychosis and automatism are not in there as established symptoms. So while in absolute terms there’s some subjectivity, there is a pretty good degree of confidence that PTSD does not do to a person what it would need to do to absolve them of responsibility. Enough so that I’m not close to comfortable saying murder can be excused by mental illness here.

I agree, mostly because, well let's be honest here;  you are far more educated and experienced on this subj in more than one way than I am or likely ever will be - there's no argument on that, from me.

I'm just trying to point out that no one will ever truly know what happened leading up to the murder/suicide.  I'm just not going to throw the "he's a POS!" towel in the ring. 

Ref 'current medical knowledge of PTSD', we don't know what we don't know about it, we only know what we know about it 'at this time'.  Medical professionals years ago used to drill holes in people's head to 'let out the demons'.  They don't do it now because medical science has advanced;  who knows what medical, science and the legal system will know and how much it will change WRT PTSD, TBI, etc over the next decade or two.  Shell shock was called cowardice once and people were executed for it. 

 

[TCM621]

Right, but it’s not like PTSD is a total mystery. Symptomology and diagnosis is quite well established. Our sample here is not limited to PTSD sufferers who then commit murder and then suicide- many, many people have suffered and have been studied. Across all the many studies of PTSD, psychosis and automatism are not in there as established symptoms. So while in absolute terms there’s some subjectivity, there is a pretty good degree of confidence that PTSD does not do to a person what it would need to do to absolve them of responsibility. Enough so that I’m not close to comfortable saying murder can be excused by mental illness here.

You circled right around to my main point.  "Enough so that I’m not close to comfortable saying murder can be excused by mental illness here." PTSD is likely not an excuse but it may be one of the reasons that lead to this. Maybe without the PTSD, he never heads down this road which leads to two dead people. Maybe if he had gotten the appropriate intervention early on, he makes a U turn or a least turns on to a less dangerous street. That is the point of this discussion, not wether or not he should be absolved of responsibility.

 

[brihard]

You circled right around to my main point.  "Enough so that I’m not close to comfortable saying murder can be excused by mental illness here." PTSD is likely not an excuse but it may be one of the reasons that lead to this. Maybe without the PTSD, he never heads down this road which leads to two dead people. Maybe if he had gotten the appropriate intervention early on, he makes a U turn or a least turns on to a less dangerous street. That is the point of this discussion, not wether or not he should be absolved of responsibility.

There are a few things being discussed here and a couple parallel threads of conversation. I don’t disagree with any of what you just said, but it’s also not the discussion all of us are having. A few other members have been throwing out straw men suggesting I and others are saying things like “POS” or “scumbag” that we have not uttered. I and I think a few others are fighting back against the notion that a person is not blameworthy for domestic violence or murder because of PTSD. There’s huge risk in general to the population of mentally ill veterans that comes from a normalizing of the “dangerous PTSD vet” narrative. Anything falsely contributing to that needs to be challenged- and that includes splitting the quite thick hair between ‘contributes’, ‘causes’, and ‘excuses’.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

There are a few things being discussed here and a couple parallel threads of conversation. I don’t disagree with any of what you just said, but it’s also not the discussion all of us are having. A few other members have been throwing out straw men suggesting I and others are saying things like “POS” or “scumbag” that we have not uttered.

Let's back up a little then...

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/nova-scotia/springhill-house-fire-death-suspicious-fire-1.4590486


Only in Canada would a piece of garbage who murders his partner be labelled a victim. 

I am in the military and I am in the combat arms.  I'm also not happy because a murderer is being treated as a victim.  Call him what he is, a murdering scumbag.  Having a mental illness doesn't absolve someone from responsibility for a crime. I'll save the pity party for someone who is actually deserving.

Ok, so it wasn't literally "POS" but may as well of been.

It may not have been premeditated, it may not have been in cold blood, but it was a choice that ended an innocent life and undoubtedly wrecked several others. Nothing excuses that, and nothing short of an absolute psychotic break with reality would mitigate culpability. Until and unless I see a convincing indication of that psychosis, I'm going to stand firm on this.

The part in yellow;  it is quite impossible to prove a psychotic break did/did not happen, yet you've decided and judged in absence of something that it is, literally, never going to be possible to prove one way or the other. 

Just something to consider...

 

[Jarnhamar]

Maybe if he had gotten the appropriate intervention early on, he makes a U turn or a least turns on to a less dangerous street.

One problem that sometimes occurs is that some people don't want help.  You can drive them to appointments, skip PT to sit in their closet with them, pay their bills, make excuses for their behaviour,  sit on the phone for hours with them but if they don't want to really get better they won't.  People invest time, money and sanity to help but the member doesn't want to help themselves. I don't know its due to some facet of their mental illness  but in some causes I think people do actually enjoy being a victim and the attention that comes with it.

Im sorry if that's insulting and in no way  shape or form am I accusing members here of that but I think we would be disingenuous to act like it doesn't happen.

I know we'll often say people fall through the cracks and say they didn't get the help they needed, and lean towards blaming the system (which in many causes IS at fault) but sometimes someone had access to a ton of help, a ton of  programs and peer support  but they don't take it.  And the slap in the face comes when they get in front of a camera or screen and start talking about how no one is helping them.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm going to wait for the Coroner's Report before I try figure out what happened and why. I'll use that as a professional diagnosis of where to start. A Coroner's Investigation will wind through the intricacies of the problems.

All I'm going to say is that many mental illnesses, of the same diagnosis, have wildly different effects on people, who on outward appearances are the same.

No one case is the same as another.

Certainly, at this point, by simply looking at the layman's speculation of the causes, diseases, outcomes wished for, denied or stated you can see the disparity of positions. And none of those speculations have any connection whatsoever to this case, until proven in court.

So I will wait for that. 8)

 

[jollyjacktar]

There’s huge risk in general to the population of mentally ill veterans that comes from a normalizing of the “dangerous PTSD vet” narrative. Anything falsely contributing to that needs to be challenged- and that includes splitting the quite thick hair between ‘contributes’, ‘causes’, and ‘excuses’.

This.  As someone who has that on their medfile, l too am alarmed at the thought of huge brushes being applied to all of us.  The new PAL initiatives being spun up by the GoC, for instance.  Even though my wings are for the most part steady and level will that make a difference to some segments of "the system" out there?  I don't know.  But too, l don't trust the current PM for that matter either to not have a knee jerk response as he seems to like to do.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

One problem that sometimes occurs is that some people don't want help.  You can drive them to appointments, skip PT to sit in their closet with them, pay their bills, make excuses for their behaviour,  sit on the ohone for hours with them but if they don't want to really get better they won't.  People invest time, money and sanity to help but the member doesn't want to help themselves. I don't know its due to some facet of their mental illness  but in some causes I think people do actually enjoy being a victim and the attention that comes with it.

Im sorry if that's insulting and in no way  shape or form am I accusing members here of that but I think we would be disingenuous to act like it doesn't happen.

I know we'll often say people fall through the cracks and say they didn't get the help they needed, and lean towards blaming the system (which in many causes IS at fault) but sometimes someone had access to a ton of help, a ton of  programs and peer support  but they don't take it.  And the slap in the face comes when they get in front of a camera or screen and start talking about how no one is helping them.

And that, is exactly what I mean. If people, in physical contact find barriers to treatment from their charge, they should pass the person to someone more qualified.

It's alright for peers to help, if they wish. However, when it starts to overwhelm the supporter, it's time for them to seek a higher level care for their buddy. We don't need the supporters getting mental problems by osmosis.

Every single person serving should be given the ASIST training and other mental health training available to help them understand. A weeks worth of lectures and practice. Then EVERYONE knows what to look for and how to handle it. Instead of a precious few per unit. It's not like we don't waste at least that much time on CYA mandated training anyway. Some have a single incident that wounded them, sometimes it's cumulative and you won't see it coming. That's what they determined for mine. They figure it started with a couple of highly traumatic incidents in the '70's and kept getting worse until I was almost full blown PTSD before deploying to Afghanistan. After return to Canada, it took a professional to spot it. Explains a lot of things in my career. Mine was so smooth and long term that the effects weren't noticeable as out of place or alarming.

So please, in your discussions, remember that there is a human on the other end of your conversation, with severe problems whatever they may be. People are and will continue to traumatized over this. While we can wildly speculate and spitball, no one here is qualified to judge any case, whether in the news or in the unit by what a newspaper or TV station says. And no one here is an expert on mental health, treatment or knock ons of any particular case.

Tone down your indignation please and try stick to the facts as known.

 

[brihard]

Ah, my mistake, I hadn’t closet read HB’s initial posts in a couple days now.

To dismiss “here is what a particular disorder is well known to do” as “wild speculation” and such is disingenuous. Again, PTSD is not at all a new disorder. What it does to people is well documented and understood.

I’m gonna try to sum this up to make sure my view is extremely clear:
- A person with PTSD murdered his girlfriend and then took his own life.
- The event is unquestionably a tragedy.
- The person happens to have been a veteran.
- The veteran likely would have benefitted from accessing more resources and services than they did, for whatever reasons may have been.
- PTSD is a well researched disorder with known symptomology.
- That known symptomology, again from extensive research, does not include anything that will typically result in a person not being criminally responsible for murder.
- Canadian courts have heard arguments and have not found PTSD to absolve someone of criminal responsibility for murder.
- Medical literature does not appear to lean this way either.

Therefore, to my mind, a person with PTSD who murders someone else remains responsible for that murder. To claim otherwise, against current medical evidence and legal precedent, will require that claim to be proven by anyone making it. It is possible, but nothing at all convincing to me has come up yet.

I am prepared to separately consider whether traumatic brain injury - briefly mentioned in his story - may separately be in play in stripping a person of control over their behaviour. That’s less understood at this point. It would also be dependent on his case history to prove. In any case, a murder in the context of domestic violence isn’t something I will loosely cast off a perpetrator’s responsibility for unless there is something exceptional in play.

I’m not saying the situation doesn’t suck. I’m not saying his death isn’t tragic. I’m saying that despite his medical condition, he remains responsible for killing another person until and unless some wildly new knowledge about PTSD should emerge to prove otherwise, and that his case history as known supports same. If this opinion offends or is unpopular, I am not troubled by that. Killing one’s domestic partner is offensive and unpopular too.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm not disputing a single thing in your post. I'm not familiar with the guy or his family. I was never inside his head. I don't know what his diagnoses is. I don't know what brought him to that place, that day.

I cannot speculate based on news report and statistics of PTSD from the internet. You know what they say about statistics and only a medical professional or educated layman can truly understand them. I'm sure they have a basis in fact, but those stats should be questioned, possibly updated, especially with new information coming in daily. I won't discount them, but depending, they might not get that much weight either.

General statements in discussions of what we know is fine, like the stats. We could discuss them. I think we need more of that so people can start understanding something most of them don't, regardless. So long as it sticks to a non personal bent.

I find the discussion of a Brother, the condemnation and the wild accusations of ignorant laymen disgusting. Not one single person should be saying anything about his mental illness until the final determination, nor should they be drawing ill guided, unfounded verdicts about the incident.

If you knew them, celebrate their lives, the times you had, maybe your closeness on deployment.

I didn't know them but will wish them godspeed just the same.

Again, a general discussion of all things PTSD would be welcome.

Piling on of an individual, without understanding any of the outliers is immoral and revolting to the Brotherhood we belong to. And even if we matched every statistic to him, we'd still be guessing, and that's something we shouldn't be doing.