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VAC Return to Lifetime Pensions Discussion

Question, if rumor is correct: Who did the RCL consult before giving it's approval? If true, and the LPP (Lifetime Pension Program) is crap, then it's time all the Vets, under the new Act. to rip the RCL a new cake hole, resoundingly in every way possible.

I don't think these guys  http://www.legion.ca/who-we-are/our-members/our-executive  have enough military experience to represent anyone.
 
The dollar value will matter less than how a pension option would stack on top of other benefits like ELB, CIA, RISB, etc. If the new pension amount is applied on top of those benefits and does not reduce them, then I suspect we'll see a formula where pretty much everyone will be much better served under the NVC than they were under the Pension Act. If, however, the medical pension amount deducts from ELB, RISB, etc, then it will be situation no change.

As it stands the 90% ELB is a pretty damned good benefit for those who qualify. CAF salaries have risen considerably from the old days. The pension act disability pensions even for married with a couple of kids don't stack up against SNCO or officer pay, and you have to have a pretty high disability % even for it to beat out 90% of a cpl's pay. If you aren't a Private, or 98%+ disabled, or still able to work and make a pretty good income, then in most cases the monthly total from NVC benefits beat out the Pension Act in a case by case comparison. Unfortunately it only does so after a fair bit of math, which makes it difficult to show pissed off veterans with short attention spans how the number stack up in a lot of cases.

The goal needs to be a combination of 'nobody ends up worse off than they would have been under Pension Act' along with 'those who have viable prospects of rehabilitation through education and vocational training get access to them and a chance at a new career'. We SHOULD be trying to make injured vets serviceable in the workforce again if they are able to do it. The Pension Act basically paid them to shut up, go away, drink, and die and not to trouble VAC in the meantime.

Unfortunately, I suspect this will be implemented basically as another layer of band-aid on top of the other existing benefits. The whole system needs to be re-written from the ground up on a first-principles basis and incorporating everything we've learned about the modern needs of veterans, and the possibility than in short order we could unexpectedly end up in a brisk fight resulting in thousands of young, injured vets who still want to live a meaningful life.

 
Rifleman62 said:
Don't forget the it is tax free.

I have not forgotten that. It adds to the value somewhat, to be sure. The big question though is if it will offset and reduce ELB and RISB.
 
It still doesn't address the disparity for the majority of veterans who are not severely injured and for whom ELB and CIA are not even on the radar:

Veterans1_zpsx4ob3zog.jpg
 
So now that we have dissected the rumours about the announcement, it will be interesting to see the announcement itself....
 
Well, playing the Devil's Advocate; if they were re-establishing the Pension Act pension, I have no doubt in my military mind that they would have had a massive press conference while the House of Commons was still sitting to announce it.

The House adjourned for the Christmas break yesterday, and won't resume until January 29th.

Wherever the Minister makes his announcement next week, it's a safe bet that you'd be able to fire a cannonball down the hallway and not hit anyone.
 
PPCLI Guy said:
So now that we have dissected the rumours about the announcement, it will be interesting to see the announcement itself....

I don't think you're naive enough to believe it's going to be a blockbuster day for veterans when the announcement is hidden after the Commons is adjourned for the winter and sometime on the week before Christmas when most Canadians are worried about what Boxing Day deals are going to be coming out soon.
 
I am a lot of things - naive is not one of them.

I would just rather discuss the policy, rather than what people think the policy may be.
 
The Liberal government's plan to give wounded ex-soldiers "the option" of a lifetime pension will be a complicated two-part rejigging of the current system, CBC News has learned.

A series of sources with knowledge of the file say the first component involves recognizing the pain and suffering of injuries with either the existing lump sum award, or a monthly tax-free payment to a maximum of $1,200 per month.

The second component is a "bundling of existing benefits" already available under the often-maligned New Veterans Charter.

The plan, to be released on Tuesday — a week after the House of Commons recess — has been two years in the making.


New veterans more likely to have hard time adjusting to civilian life: survey
The veterans community was awash with rumours Thursday after some advocates had background conversations with senior veterans affairs officials.

Changes to the system are not expected to come into effect until 2019, said the sources who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the file.

A spokesman for Veterans Affairs Minister Seamus O'Regan said the government is committed to delivering on its promise, but would not talk about any details.

"We remain committed to a lifelong benefit option for ill and injured veterans," said Alex Wellstead. "Options and numbers are not nailed down."

The plan will likely not reduce the political heat from veterans groups who have, since the 2015 election, been expecting a major overhaul and a return to what they perceive is a more generous regime.

No parity with previous regime

At the heart of their dissatisfaction was the switch in 2006 away from lifetime pensions for wounds sustained in the line of duty towards a system of lump sum payments with a maximum expenditure of $376,000.

That will not change, the sources said, and the Liberal plan for monthly payments represents the maximum "amortized over time" at the discretion of injured veteran, up to the age of 80.

A policy group that advised former veterans minister Kent Hehr warned him last spring not to go down the road of amortizing the existing benefit.


'Liberals have let us down,' says frustrated vet awaiting pension decision
The average pain and suffering award is $43,000, according to Veterans Affairs Canada documents obtained by CBC News under access to information legislation.

That means very few wounded soldiers would ever see the entire $1,200 per month payment which will be touted next week.

Under the old pension act severely wounded soldiers would have received up $2,700 per month, but Liberal government sources have long said that their changes "would not seek parity" with the previous system.

Call to end clawbacks

It is that disparity that was at the heart of the class action lawsuit by veterans of the Afghan war — a case that was recently thrown out by the B.C. Court of Appeal.

The ex-soldiers claimed they were being discriminated against because the changes were introduced halfway through the war — creating a situation where troops injured in the same conflict at different times would get different benefits.

The Liberals, in the last election, promised to change that by giving soldiers the option of a lump sum or a lifetime pension.


Cooperation with government isn't working. Veterans need to start making noise
One of the people involved the court case said the changes the government is about to make need to meet a simple test in order to satisfy aggrieved ex-soldiers. 

"The bar the government has to meet is parity with the pension act in terms of the net dollars in a veteran's pocket every month," said retired major Mark Campbell, who had both legs blown off in Afghanistan in a booby-trapped ditch.

"It can only be a real pension if the benefits are tax free and if there is no clawback of their military pension as part of the disability payment."

'Bundling of existing benefits'

The government has repeatedly argued that the new system is just as generous when one takes into account taxable entitlements such as the earnings loss benefit and the permanent impairment allowance.

But Campbell said what doesn't get mentioned is the pension clawback, which is "huge" for veterans.

Veterans have complained that that portion of the system is mind-boggling in its complexity and next week's changes are expected to address that by the "bundling of existing benefits."

The Trudeau government signalled in last spring's budget that it would have something to say before the end of the year on the issue of veterans pensions.

It has already put an estimated $6.3 billion put into improved veterans services, including the reopening of nine regional offices shuttered by the previous government; and the rehiring of both claims processing staff and case managers at Veterans Affairs.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/vets-pension-fight-1.4449710
 
PPCLI Guy said:
I am a lot of things - naive is not one of them.

I would just rather discuss the policy, rather than what people think the policy may be.

Feel free to check in next week, then. I'm 99.99% sure you're not being forced against your will to read people's speculation. If you are, blink twice and I'll call the appropriate authorities.
 
PPCLI Guy said:
I would just rather discuss the policy, rather than what people think the policy may be.
That’s crazy talk. It is so much easier to form a strawman, get worked up about imagined faults, and come to emotional & inflexible opinions if one conducts the analysis before any facts are available.
 
Why would this only apply to retired vets? What about current serving members who were injured and received a disability award?
 
slayer/raptor said:
Why would this only apply to retired vets? What about current serving members who were injured and received a disability award?

There's 2 components to this one being the pension the other is bundling the other benefits. Now it is unknown if the pension that is being talked about will be an option for those that already got a lump sum or if it will be a go forward only option.

Not sure what they intend on doing with the bundling of benefits but those benefits are usually for those no longer serving and/or can't work.
 
slayer/raptor said:
Why would this only apply to retired vets? What about current serving members who were injured and received a disability award?

It should apply as do current disability awards - anyone who has a rated disability from VAC and has been issued an award as a result. There are plenty of serving members who have received lump sums, are receiving pensions, or both.

The disability pension was basically a combined economic and non-economic compensation - it was intended to compensate both for lost income, and for the 'suck' of being disabled.

With NVC those two components got split. Economic: ELB and PIA (later CIA) and after retirement RISB to offset lost income and increased costs of disability. Non-economic: "Sucks you're disabled; here's cash" the Disability Award and more recently the horrendously flawed Critical Injury Benefit. It's a dogs breakfast of acronyms and benefits, some of which overlap, some of which don't.

Adding a monthly amount on topof what already exists - IF it stacks and isn't taxed - will put nearly everyone in a better position that pure pension act would have. There will likely be one remaining exception: Those who receive a disability, but who do not qualify for ELB either due to succesfully transitioning into a new job, or not having been medically released. Previously you could get say a 20% disability, but if you could stay in the CAF or get other work, you would still receive your full pay AND you would get the added amount of the disability pension. In effect the disability pension would at that point become purely compensatory, rather than a blend of compensatory and income replacement.

The end effect of the NVC in splitting off these two components is this: There is now a definite dollar value specifically and only for the pain and suffering. The disability award or pending disability pension are purely to compensate for the crappiness of being disabled. The income replacement is handled separately through ELB. And overall that's actually not a bad way to do it If the numbers are fair and reasonable. The problem is that it is so easily contrasted with the old system, where with much less of a bureaucratic fight for numerous different benefits one would receive a steady and predictable dollar value from a much more straightforward benefits scheme, and if you had to live off of it you could.

So now we have a system where those who are injured but still work gainfully receive less than under the original system. Realistically I don't see that being changed unless they were to fundamentally alter how ELB works and deduct the disability pension from it. I think that would be a non-starter, even though it might actually make the most sense and come closest to an improved version of the old system. So I think we're going to see another half-measures band aid layer.
 
Government of Canada to announce Pension for Life for Veterans
Media Advisory
From Veterans Affairs Canada

Ottawa – The Honourable Seamus O’Regan, Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence and Sherry Romanado, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence, will announce details about the Government of Canada’s commitment to provide a pension for life for Veterans.

Media are invited to attend a technical briefing and the official announcement.

Technical Media Briefing
Location:    National Defence Headquarters (NDHQ) – Multimedia Centre

Date:          Wednesday, December 20, 2017

Time:          9:45 a.m. – Arrive at NDHQ

(EST)          9:50 a.m. – Registration

                  10 a.m. – Technical brief with subject-matter experts

Subject-matter experts will include:

Faith McIntyre, DG, Policy and Research, Veterans Affairs Canada
Paul Thomson, DG, Service Delivery Transformation, Veterans Affairs Canada

Official Announcement
Location:    National Defence Headquarters (NDHQ) – Multimedia Centre

Date:          Wednesday, December 20, 2017

Time:          11 a.m.(EST)

Spokespersons will include:

The Honourable Seamus O’Regan, Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence
Sherry Romanado, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs
General (Retired) Walter Natynczk, Deputy Minister, Veterans Affairs Canada

Watch the announcement on Facebook Live: https://www.facebook.com/VeteransAffairsCanada/
 
I've had the news on all day and not a thing has been mentioned.  And nothing on my feeds.
 
Rifleman62 said:
Media are invited to attend a technical briefing and the official announcement.

Technical Media Briefing
Location:    National Defence Headquarters (NDHQ) – Multimedia Centre

Date:          Wednesday, December 20, 2017

Time:          9:45 a.m. – Arrive at NDHQ

(EST)          9:50 a.m. – Registration

                  10 a.m. – Technical brief with subject-matter experts

You're just early a wee bit... ;D
 
That answers my question. lol

I thought they were planning on announcing on Tuesday originally.
 
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