VAC Return to Lifetime Pensions Discussion

[Jarnhamar]

Is the military the only professional occupation that can't go on strike? Since we're not unionized?

 

[PuckChaser]

Is the military the only professional occupation that can't go on strike? Since we're not unionized?

Other public safety institutions cannot as well, as they are essential services (EMT. Fire, Police). They all, however, have collective bargaining organizations to gain concessions for them. The RCMP recently just was authorized to form a collective bargaining agent, but had to go all the way to the Supreme Court to get it done.

I'm not a fan of big labour unions, but it might be time we need to fight the battle the RCMP just did. Imagine how much stuff would get fixed if an independent arbitrator got a look (and educated on the intricacies) at our pay and benefits (PLD comes to mind), and the ludicrous delays at VAC.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

As for the "service to your country" comment, I think we overuse this somewhat. Any teacher, fire fighter, policeman, lawyer, judge, etc is doing a "service for their country". The difference between all of them and the CAF is unlimited liability.

That is one of many differences.  Can we really compare a 3rd grade teacher to an Infantry Private in a TIC in a place like Afghanistan, or a lawyer to Sgt Doiron who was killed in Iraq in 2015?  This is an overly simplistic comparison.  Military service is unique to any of your examples, with the police being the closest IMO;  RCMP have deployed before and can be involved in the 2 way live range.  But, they still do not compare 100%...

If a judge hurts himself walking into court than shouldn't he be entitled to a similar pension as a soldier who hurt himself outside of the scope of unlimited liability? What about a teacher who is attacked by a student?

I think we're starting to get away from reality here a bit too much.  I don't see relevance in pursuing too many 'what if' scenarios when we have enough reality-based ones we could discuss.

 

[mariomike]

Is the military the only professional occupation that can't go on strike? Since we're not unionized?

Toronto police officers, firefighters and paramedics have been unionized since World War One.
We do not have, and do not seek, the Right to Strike. Issues not resolved by collective bargaining, go to binding interest arbitration.

There may come a time when, "during hostilities or during a time of war as declared by the Government of Canada" like it or not, civilians are once again drafted into the CAF.

When, like it or not, Reservists are involuntarily activated to full-time and, like it or not, may be sent out of Canada.

VR's will / may be put on hold until "cessation of hostilities".

What good would a union be then?

See also,

"Unionizing" the CF (merged)
https://army.ca/forums/threads/1294.250
11 pages.

 

[Jarnhamar]

There may come a time when, "during hostilities or during a time of war as declared by the Government of Canada" like it or not, civilians are once again drafted into the CAF.

When, like it or not, Reservists are involuntarily activated to full-time and, like it or not, may be sent out of Canada.

VR's will / may be put on hold until "cessation of hostilities".

What good would a union be then?

Because the MIR& hospital wouldn't be flooded with thousands of people screaming #IJustCan't       
If you go to a MIR on the days preceeding a brigade rucksack march or run and you'll get an idea what I mean.

 

[cowboy628]

Not sure were to put this question, someone post they were at 118% ???. Now I can’t find it. The only way that could happen is if you combined the old and new programs. I was told at one point by DVA the max is only 100% doesn’t matter if you are under new and old program. I’m at 69% old plan, 30% new plan. I guess I Need to talk to them again.

 

[Teager]

Not sure were to put this question, someone post they were at 118% ???. Now I can’t find it. The only way that could happen is if you combined the old and new programs. I was told at one point by DVA the max is only 100% doesn’t matter if you are under new and old program. I’m at 69% old plan, 30% new plan. I guess I Need to talk to them again.

You can only get paid the max amount $360k at 100%. If you are over 100% you still have benfits for that injury/illness such as medical care.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Is the military the only professional occupation that can't go on strike? Since we're not unionized?

You clearly don't understand how the WO's & Sgt's Mess works  ;D  :sarcasm:

 

[cowboy628]

:rofl:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You clearly don't understand how the WO's & Sgt's Mess works  ;D  :sarcasm:

I think my wife calls it passive aggressive behaviour. 

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

That is one of many differences.  Can we really compare a 3rd grade teacher to an Infantry Private in a TIC in a place like Afghanistan, or a lawyer to Sgt Doiron who was killed in Iraq in 2015?  This is an overly simplistic comparison.  Military service is unique to any of your examples, with the police being the closest IMO;  RCMP have deployed before and can be involved in the 2 way live range.  But, they still do not compare 100%...

I think we're starting to get away from reality here a bit too much.  I don't see relevance in pursuing too many 'what if' scenarios when we have enough reality-based ones we could discuss.

There is relevance based on your comments though. The information private hurt in the conduct of ops is absolutely different than the teacher. The difference is for those hurt in training and non op purposes.

In a sense, a teacher/nurse who is hurt on the job is no different than a soldier who is hurt in training. Different circumstances, same end state.

I have a sis terrible who is a nurse and has seen more death, despair, and injury than the bulk of the military ever will. She has PTSD as a result of some incidents. To me, she deserves the same a vet with PTSD would get, and vice versa, as they BOTH got their injuries based on service to the public. Neither is more deserving than the other.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

We will have to disagree on this.  Nurses and teachers don’t sign on knowing doing their job may result in their own violent death. 

Huge difference.  Huge.

 

[mariomike]

Serious question though, how does our VA/benefits system compare to the civilian world? 

I have a sis terrible who is a nurse and has seen more death, despair, and injury than the bulk of the military ever will. She has PTSD as a result of some incidents.

I don't know how the Ontario WSIB - PTSD Policy compares to the VA - PTSD policy, but perhaps a comparison can be made.

In Ontario, the WSIB Policy, Post-traumatic Stress Disorder ( PTSD ) in First Responders does not apply to nurses.

The Policy defines "first responder" as police officers, firefighters and paramedics.

This is what caught my eye,

"The first responder must have been employed as a first responder for at least one day on or after April 6, 2014."

I don't have PTSD. Even if I did, the Policy would not apply to me as I retired as a "first responder" in 2009.

Presumption
"If a first responder is diagnosed with PTSD by a psychiatrist or psychologist, the PTSD is presumed to have arisen out of and in the course of the first responder's employment, unless the contrary is shown."

In other words, that means "cumulative mental stress". aka "burnout".

At our departmental pensioner luncheons we have been hearing ( unofficially ) that there is fear higher up in the Dept. that if an honourable path exists to escape Emergency Operations ( ie: get transferred into a "suitable" job with no loss of pay and all raises, seniority, benefits etc. ) that many will take it.

Thus causing the car count to decrease, causing response times to increase. At the same time call volume is rapidly increasing due to the growing, and ageing, population in the city.

I don't intend to argue if the Ontario WSIB - PTSD Policy is fair or unfair. I didn't write it. That's just the way it is.

Separate from WSIB, is the Long Term Disability ( LTD ) Plan.

"The City will provide for all employees by contract with an insurer selected by the City, a Long Term Disability plan for employees and will pay one hundred percent (100%) of the cost thereof to provide a long term disability benefit of seventy-five percent (75%) of basic salary for disability claims.
The City shall provide employees who are in receipt of the long term disability plan benefit, benefit coverage under the Extended Health Care and Dental plans.
The City shall pay one hundred per cent (100%) of the premiums."

LTD  has always been in our collective agreement with the City.
LTD pays 75 per cent, until age 65. That can be topped up to 100 per cent through Third Party Liability or your Sick Bank.
At age 65 you go on OMERS pension.
LTD covers illness and injury not covered by WSIB ( including stress related disability ). 
So, by WSIB or LTD, PTSD has always been covered.
http://www.torontoparamedic.com/misc/TO%20Manulife/TO%20Benefit%20Book.pdf
"This Benefit Summary printed: May 28, 2013"

It's not up to date, but will give you an idea.

Employees and pensioners are covered by the City of Toronto Group Benefits program, the collective agreement with the City, and WSIB and OMERS with the Province of Ontario.

"How does our VA/benefits system compare to the civilian world?"

Hope that helps.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

We will have to disagree on this.  Nurses and teachers don’t sign on knowing doing their job may result in their own violent death. 

Huge difference.  Huge.

True. However- the point is that soldiers are predominantly injured in events that aren't related to the "violent death" or unlimited liability portion of the job.

If soldier A hurts his knee jumping out of a truck on an ex than is it really different than a construction worker jumping off the back of a truck?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

This is a dangerous slope to start down. Injured during duty time in performance of a military duty is the delineating line here. 

Is there a difference between a SAR Tech who dies on a trg jump and a SOF door kicker who is jumping into a theatre to visit death on our enemies?  Is there not a difference between those 2 CAF members and a civilian jump instructor?

The difference is the same as your example.  One of them is military and injured performing a military duty and one is a civilian hurt but not during peroformance of a military duty.  We can’t start saying Bloggins jumped off a truck in Iraq and is therefore afforded better care while Smith who was injured jumping off the same kind of truck in Shilo gets less. 
:2c:

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

This is a dangerous slope to start down. Injured during duty time in performance of a military duty is the delineating line here. 

Is there a difference between a SAR Tech who dies on a trg jump and a SOF door kicker who is jumping into a theatre to visit death on our enemies?  Is there not a difference between those 2 CAF members and a civilian jump instructor?

The difference is the same as your example.  One of them is military and injured performing a military duty and one is a civilian hurt but not during peroformance of a military duty.  We can’t start saying Bloggins jumped off a truck in Iraq and is therefore afforded better care while Smith who was injured jumping off the same kind of truck in Shilo gets less. 
:2c:

Military duty doesn't make us automatically better than civilians or entitled to more. There is a certain attitude that military service somehow makes everything more important. Other professions have similar, and arguably more influential roles on society (police, fire fighters, doctors, etc) than we do. They arguably put themselves in harms way more than we do also.

There are duties that seperate us from them but it doesn't include every duty. That's why we have CF-98s and instruments to delineate between training and ops.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Militzary duty doesn't make us automatically better than civilians or entitled to more. There is a certain attitude that military service somehow makes everything more important. Other professions have similar, and arguably more influential roles on society (police, fire fighters, doctors, etc) than we do. They arguably put themselves in harms way more than we do also.

There are duties that seperate us from them but it doesn't include every duty. That's why we have CF-98s and instruments to delineate between training and ops.

It does.  When the country requires unlimited liability that is setting that group aside and making them different and unique; and the care that should be afforded to those who voluntarily offer unlimited liability should be equal too the demand for the said unlimited liability. 

Also in Canada the only profession who can be ordered, without the right to refuse, into harms way is the Armed Services.  It comes with that whole unlimited liability thingy.

 

[Teager]

For anyone wanting the math for the pension.



https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/PSA%20CALCULATOR.pdf?token=AWw4esF4bnRvVucNuHykjfZy93M27Pl8UywjB9mJTQ_bcB8r7dNCjTjks37RupwENT2izpmnfc4zx0OnGhR0mKzYSg9JDOpPDhOORfbfEPiHPq66FKkNOhvB_2oQC1GIZw-8_sOtpqYl6iiL86BuHz5a-FWuR3YhWFjsyxANxvQt9yRpoU0zgyWOPlJM8ml17heLHXLKapd8JVgMbRAbFKfi

 

[mariomike]

(police, fire fighters, doctors, etc)

According to the Government of Canada, there are six Public Safety Occupations.
Doctors are not on the list,

"public safety occupation means the occupation of
(a) firefighter,
(b) police officer,
(c) corrections officer,
(d) air traffic controller,
(e) commercial airline pilot,
(f) paramedic;"
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._945/page-107.html

Also in Canada the only profession who can be ordered, without the right to refuse, into harms way is the Armed Services. 

The SOP we operated under when I was on the job:

"Paramedics are reminded of their responsibility under the Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43, (1) and (2).2 These sections exclude paramedics from the right to refuse work where the circumstances are inherent in their work and/or if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person."

 

[Halifax Tar]

According to the Government of Canada, there are six Public Safety Occupations.
Doctors are not on the list,

"public safety occupation means the occupation of
(a) firefighter,
(b) police officer,
(c) corrections officer,
(d) air traffic controller,
(e) commercial airline pilot,
(f) paramedic;"
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._945/page-107.html

The SOP we all operated under when I was on the job:

"Paramedics are reminded of their responsibility under the Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43, (1) and (2).2 These sections exclude paramedics from the right to refuse work where the circumstances are inherent in their work and/or if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person."

I may be wrong but its what i read in Duty with Honour: The Profession of Arms in Canada, published in 2003.

Also the difference here is a paramedic cannot be given a lawful command to lay down their life.  Meaning while you cannot refuse dangerous life threatening work you cannot be ordered to your death.  We can.