VAC Return to Lifetime Pensions Discussion

[daftandbarmy]

This is a dangerous slope to start down. Injured during duty time in performance of a military duty is the delineating line here. 

Is there a difference between a SAR Tech who dies on a trg jump and a SOF door kicker who is jumping into a theatre to visit death on our enemies?  Is there not a difference between those 2 CAF members and a civilian jump instructor?

The difference is the same as your example.  One of them is military and injured performing a military duty and one is a civilian hurt but not during peroformance of a military duty.  We can’t start saying Bloggins jumped off a truck in Iraq and is therefore afforded better care while Smith who was injured jumping off the same kind of truck in Shilo gets less. 
:2c:

And, in the CAF, if you refuse to do any of those things, you can be shot at dawn. Literally.

 

[mariomike]

And, in the CAF, if you refuse to do any of those things, you can be shot at dawn. Literally.

When is the last time that happened?

"Harold Joseph Pringle (died 5 July 1945) was the only soldier of the Canadian Army to be executed during the Second World War."
"Pringle was sentenced to death for murder."
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo4/no2/book-livre-04-eng.asp


This is just for a work refusal,

Toronto Police Officer Charged with Criminal Negligence Causing Death and Failing to Provide the Necessaries of Life
https://www.siu.on.ca/en/news_template.php?nrid=2673

Toronto Police Officer Facing Additional Charge: Breach of Trust by a Public Officer
https://www.siu.on.ca/en/news_template.php?nrid=2713

 

[Halifax Tar]

When is the last time that happened?

"Harold Joseph Pringle (died 5 July 1945) was the only soldier of the Canadian Army to be executed during the Second World War."
"Pringle was sentenced to death for murder."
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo4/no2/book-livre-04-eng.asp


This is just for a work refusal,

Toronto Police Officer Charged with Criminal Negligence Causing Death and Failing to Provide the Necessaries of Life
https://www.siu.on.ca/en/news_template.php?nrid=2673

Toronto Police Officer Facing Additional Charge: Breach of Trust by a Public Officer
https://www.siu.on.ca/en/news_template.php?nrid=2713

It matters not when it last happened it’s included in the unlimited liability that we alone hold. 

Also your links are entirely too vague. 

 

[dapaterson]

It matters not when it last happened it’s included in the unlimited liability that we alone hold.

No, it isn't.  The death penalty was removed from the NDA about two decades ago.

 

[Halifax Tar]

No, it isn't.  The death penalty was removed from the NDA about two decades ago.

The death peanalty yes.  Punishment for desertion, and many other service offences that are unique to military service in Canada, still exists; and these offences are taken seriously, especially in the face of the enemy.  Again, it’s about our unlimited liability. QR&O Vol II, Chap 103 is quite explicit and well detailed.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-02/ch-103.page

Intersting link:
http://cdn.forces.ca/_CAPTIONS/duty_with_honour.html

 

[mariomike]

It matters not when it last happened it’s included in the unlimited liability that we alone hold. 

Last Canadian soldier executed for a military offence was in World War One.

List of Canadian soldiers executed for military offences
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_soldiers_executed_for_military_offences
On 16 August 2006, British Defence Secretary Des Browne announced that the government would issue full pardons for all 306 Commonwealth soldiers (including the twenty-three Canadians) who were executed under these circumstances during World War I.

"In the Canadian army, only one soldier was executed for committing a military offense during the Second World War, Private Harold Joseph Pringle of The Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment. He was executed after VE-Day in Italy in 1945 for the crimes of desertion and accomplice to murder."

Where does it say a Canadian soldier of today can be executed for a military offence?

Also your links are entirely too vague.

Hope this is satisfactory to you,

National Post

Toronto police officer could face life in prison after man's death following suicide attempt
http://nationalpost.com/news/toronto/toronto-police-officer-could-face-life-in-prison-after-mans-death-following-suicide-attempt
The provincial SIU charged Const. Kyle Upjohn with criminal negligence causing death and failing to provide the necessities of life after a five-month investigation

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

The death peanalty yes.  Punishment for desertion, and many other service offences that are unique to military service in Canada, still exists; and these offences are taken seriously, especially in the face of the enemy.  Again, it’s about our unlimited liability. QR&O Vol II, Chap 103 is quite explicit and well detailed.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-02/ch-103.page

Intersting link:
http://cdn.forces.ca/_CAPTIONS/duty_with_honour.html

The key being "in the face of the enemy". WOL or desertion in peacetime results in a charge and release in the extreme cases.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Last Canadian soldier executed for a military offence was in World War One.

List of Canadian soldiers executed for military offences
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_soldiers_executed_for_military_offences
On 16 August 2006, British Defence Secretary Des Browne announced that the government would issue full pardons for all 306 Commonwealth soldiers (including the twenty-three Canadians) who were executed under these circumstances during World War I.

"In the Canadian army, only one soldier was executed for committing a military offense during the Second World War, Private Harold Joseph Pringle of The Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment. He was executed after VE-Day in Italy in 1945 for the crimes of desertion and accomplice to murder."

Where does it say a Canadian soldier of today can be executed for desertion?

Hope this is satisfactory to you,

National Post

Toronto police officer could face life in prison after man's death following suicide attempt
http://nationalpost.com/news/toronto/toronto-police-officer-could-face-life-in-prison-after-mans-death-following-suicide-attempt
The provincial SIU charged Const. Kyle Upjohn with criminal negligence causing death and failing to provide the necessities of life after a five-month investigation

Your point 1.  See the post previous to yours,

Tor Police Guy, not seeing the correlation here.  He is accused off failing to help a suicidal guy.  Not seeing how this related to anything being discussed here.  Perhaps I’m missing a detail ?

 

[mariomike]

Meaning while you cannot refuse dangerous life threatening work you cannot be ordered to your death.  We can.

You mean like a Kamikaze attack?

Tor Police Guy, not seeing the correlation here.  He is accused off failing to help a suicidal guy.  Not seeing how this related to anything being discussed here.  Perhaps I’m missing a detail ?

Meaning nobody faces the death penalty, but emergency services face prison time - life in prison, according to the National Post - for work refusal.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The key being "in the face of the enemy". WOL or desertion in peacetime results in a charge and release in the extreme cases.

The level of discipline and liability required of CAF members tdoes not change whether in times of peace or open conflict.  The use of the term in the face of the enemy is simply an amplification of circumstance.

For example, a sailor in peacetime can be ordered to their certain death for the sake of the ship and remaing crew. The fact an enemy is present or not makes no impact.  The discipline and required liability never changes and is unique in Canada. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

You mean like a Kamikaze attack?

Two-person sniff test.

 

[mariomike]

"...ordered to your death."

Kamikaze came to mind when I read that.

 

[PuckChaser]

but emergency services face prison time - life in prison, according to the National Post - for work refusal.

So do military members. NDA 83 - Disobedience of a lawful command.

Disobedience of lawful command
83 Every person who disobeys a lawful command of a superior officer is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for life or to less punishment.

R.S., c. N-4, s. 73.

 

[Halifax Tar]

"...ordered to your death."

Kamikaze came to mind when I read that.

I think i gave a perfectly reasonable scenario. 

 

[mariomike]

So do military members. NDA 83 - Disobedience of a lawful command.

I remember that, and I know soldiers can be sent to prison for refusing a lawful order.


It was this that I questioned,

And, in the CAF, if you refuse to do any of those things, you can be shot at dawn. Literally.

Also this,

"...ordered to your death."

I've been learning as much as I can about Bomber Command for years. Only the German U-boat crews had a more pitiful chance of survival.

High Command knew that death was a mathematical certainty if crews were never relieved. That was considered to be unacceptable from a morale point of view. Especially by the crews.

So, without looking it up, they decided that offering them a 50-50 chance of survival was the way to go. To keep morale up.
Even though the reality was worse than 50-50, some did survive.

This was based on the "Moran principle". "That courage is not an absolute human characteristic, but expendable capital every man possesses in varying quantity. As Lord Moran put it, “They had used up their reserves of courage.” For some it was the cumulative effects of mental and physical fatigue."
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&ei=iP4_Wr7oNKW7jwSZ5K-oAw&q=%22moran+principle%22+%22courage+is+not+an+absolute+human+characteristic%22&oq=%22moran+principle%22+%22courage+is+not+an+absolute+human+characteristic%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...53616.63183.0.63695.6.6.0.0.0.0.197.769.0j6.6.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.XlwLyzZ-xBU

They would perhaps call it PTSD today.

The Nazi U-Boat force faced a similar situation, and handled it about the same way. As far as I can tell.
That there had to be some hope of survival.

 

[Rifleman62]

Ever read Moran's The Anatomy of Courage?

 

[mariomike]

Ever read Moran's The Anatomy of Courage?

No I have not. Just excerpts from it in books I have read pertaining to Bomber Command.

Have to add that to my reading list. 

 

[meni0n]

To get back on topic, from what I understand is that for those that took the lump sum, there will be a recalculation on the amount based on the age and life expectancy. Then you will be given a choice of taking the remaining amount in a lump sum or spread out. I am a bit confused about that since the new "pension" just looks like the lump sum spread out.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

They will need a platoon of Actuaries to convert a cash payout received under the new act, add the bump last year, convert to lifetime pension using Life Tables, deduct the cash received to date as a monthly payments = the start date of a new lifetime pension.

As like the Reserve Pension, they will probably use two different Life Tables: one for RegF and one for ResF. It didn't make sence for the RFPP, so VAC will probably do it.

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/pdf/services/disability-pension/Disability-Pension-Rates-2017.pdf

Under the old Act, eff 1 Jan 17, max (100% disabled) monthly Single - $2,733; Married - $3417; Married, two dependants - $4032.

Generally the net present value of a perpetuity is 18,000 for every $100 of monthly income. That's  how most pension's are estimated.

 

[brihard]

Generally the net present value of a perpetuity is 18,000 for every $100 of monthly income. That's  how most pension's are estimated.

If you’re able to, can you break that one down a layer for us? I don’t quite need it drawn in crayons, but I feel like what you just said is on the cusp of me learning something quite useful that’s also simple once grasped. I’d like to bridge that gap if you don’t mind a few more words on it?