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US Navy Eliminating 241-Year-Old Rating System in New Enlisted Rank Overhaul

exspy

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Blackadder1916 said:
The change comes as Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus has pushed the Department of the Navy to create gender-neutral titles for positions like rifleman...

I wonder what the Marine Corps will come up with to replace Rifleman.  As everyone knows, one of their major tenets is that "Every Marine's a Rifleman."  It's what makes them superior to the Army, as they see it.

"Every Marine's a Gender Indeterminate Person who is trained to operate a gas-operated projectile dispensing device."

"Every Marine's a person on the Sexual Orientation Spectrum who is trained, but allowed to opt out if desired, to operate a long-outdated symbol of male domination."

"Every Marine is allowed to be the best person their emotional limitations allow them to be."

Semper Fi,
Dan.
 

The Bread Guy

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Dan M said:
I wonder what the Marine Corps will come up with to replace Rifleman.  As everyone knows, one of their major tenets is that "Every Marine's a Rifleman."  It's what makes them superior to the Army, as they see it.
Here you go, then -- you're welcome  ;D
 

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McG

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SupersonicMax said:
I always tought the US Navy enlisted title system was difficult to figure out.  Good change I think!  I find it odd, however, the aim of this initiative was to make the system gender-neutral but seaman and midshipman haven't been changed...
The answer the USN needs has been posted in another thread.  The just need to substitute "sea" for "sky"

Eye In The Sky said:
It takes up less time and space than saying "airmen and airwomen" every time!  8)  They should just make the leap and call us air-people.
Remius said:
Sky soldier.  Adding Sky makes you guys sound cooler. We need to waste money so let's change it.

Sky soldier
Sky corporal
Master Sky corporal
Sky sergeant
Sky warrant
Master Sky warrant
Sky chief

Sky cadet
Sky ensign
Sky lieutenant
Sky captain
Sky major
Lieutenant Sky colonel
Sky colonel
Sky Brigadier
Sky Brigadier 2
Lieutenant Sky marshal
Sky marshal
 

Stoker

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I have no doubt this will eventually happen to the RCN as this gender neutral thinking has already crept into the way we do business. For example we no no longer use "manning pool" but a more neutral "personnel pool". Others such as DC rounds man is next I expect.
 

Oldgateboatdriver

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This has happened to the Canadian Navy along time ago, right after WW2 actually.

We stopped having a rank structure that was based on trade, so all our  "leading asdic operator" or "leading engine room artificer" or "leading radioman" became leading seaman. That's what this change for the USN is all about: removing the trade from the designation, so all trades are referred to by the same rank at the same level ( from E-1 to E-9) in the structure.

As for "gender neutral", I believe IIRC that we changed that in Canada in 1978 or 1979.

I joined in the mid-seventies and at that time, the progression to PO2 went: ordinary seaman, able seaman, leading seaman, master seaman for  male and from ordinary wren, able wren, leading wren, master wren for female. In 78 or 79  we went to the single designation of "seaman" for both gender.
 
 

George Wallace

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Chief Stoker said:
I have no doubt this will eventually happen to the RCN as this gender neutral thinking has already crept into the way we do business. For example we no no longer use "manning pool" but a more neutral "personnel pool". Others such as DC rounds man is next I expect.

I always loved this radical feminist view that we had to do away with all terminology that was male orientated.  It reminds me of the time I had to grab a quick lunch at Burger King at the top of Princess Street while being the Comd 1 Div's driver.  There was a feminist in the booth behind me explaining to her daughter how she could not be a fireman, but a fireperson; not be a policeman, but a policeperson; and on and on.  I was so tempted to tell the little girl that her mother was an ALIEN, as she could definitely not be huMAN.

By the way; how soon before someone complains about "perSONnel pool" being gender bias and derogatory?  The madness will never end.
 

dimsum

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George Wallace said:
By the way; how soon before someone complains about "perSONnel pool" being gender bias and derogatory?  The madness will never end.

Done already - a friend of mine in university (in 2000 or so) said that on one paper, his prof remarked that "person is still male-oriented" or words to that effect, and that "perkin" should be used. 
 

mariomike

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George Wallace said:
There was a feminist in the booth behind me explaining to her daughter how she could not be a fireman, but a fireperson; not be a policeman, but a policeperson; and on and on.

Police Officer, Firefighter and Paramedic work for me. All I ever asked of a partner was that s/he could LIFT.

"Machinist’s Mate First Class Jake Holman – MM1 Holman– from the novel and film The Sand Pebbles would be Petty Officer First Class Holman or Petty Officer Holman."

I think Jake would say, "What happened? What the Hell happened?"  :)

During the war, my father was an ART-APP Sto 1st in the RCNVR. ( Engine Room Articifer's Apprentice. ) Not sure what that would be in the USN, or the RCN of today.
 

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Blackadder1916

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Dimsum said:
Done already - a friend of mine in university (in 2000 or so) said that on one paper, his prof remarked that "person is still male-oriented" or words to that effect, and that "perkin" should be used.

I guess that's proof positive some professors (as well as many of their students) are dumb as hammers.  Reaching back near half a century, when Latin was a mandatory subject in my school (but don't ask me to conjugate any verbs even if you are standing over me with a ruler ready to rap knuckles - I'll tell you to get fucked), my recollection is that the English word "person" is derived from the Latin "persona" which originally referred to a theatrical mask and later a character (both in a theatrical and legal setting).  It is not derived from "son".  And as Latin was a language with grammatical gender, one of the simple rules we (adolescents subjected to the wrath of the Latin teacher in search of misconjugating dolts) used in noun declensions was "if it ends in 'a' it is feminine, but not always".  Don't ask me if "persona" was one of the exceptions, I don't remember.
 

dimsum

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mariomike said:
During the war, my father was an ART-APP Sto 1st in the RCNVR. ( Engine Room Articifer's Apprentice. ) Not sure what that would be in the USN, or the RCN of today.

Petty Officer 1st Class, with the trade of MESO or Stoker.
 
J

jollyjacktar

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Dimsum said:
Petty Officer 1st Class, with the trade of MESO or Stoker.

Not as an Apprentice.  Apprentices are junior rated members who have not become Journeymen yet.  In todays fleet they're QL3-4, QL5 is the Journeyman level course and where they're at/coming to the LS rank.
 

mariomike

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Thanks Dimsum and JJT. Dad loved the Navy. He was on Active Service from August 1943 ( age 17 ) to December 1945.

He served on HMCS LOCKPORT, FORT ERIE, UNGAVA and FUNDY. Three minesweepers and a frigate. One of which was coal fired.

He was never a member of the Legion. But, he travelled to 16 ART-APP re-unions. All across Canada. I don't believe he missed a single one.




 

The Bread Guy

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This from FB, requested to be posted/shared here to give a sense of how some in the USN are taking it  ;D
 

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dimsum

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While I don't see the big issue with the job title change, the way the USN ordered it and communicated it (or didn't) is good lessons learned.

Navy's personnel policy fiasco is an important lesson for leaders

The Navy’s recent decision to strip job titles from every sailor is a misstep of epic proportions – one that should serve as a stark lesson for leaders across all the services.

This fall, the Navy revealed it was suddenly removing all 91 of its enlisted ratings. This so-called “modernization” effort has been billed as a way to broaden training and career opportunities for sailors. It also satisfies the Navy’s desire to strip “man” from its titles, i.e. fire controlman, corpsman and seaman.

This move, thrust on the service by Navy Secretary Ray Mabus with the endorsement of Chief of Naval Operations Adm. John Richardson and his former top enlisted adviser, was poorly conceived, researched and communicated to the fleet.

It’s been a total morale crusher, with thousands of sailors lobbying for an immediate reversal.

Unlike the other services, sailors have been identified by their job title and not just their rank. As one sailor noted, ratings have been part of Navy tradition since 1775. For sailors, it’s part of their identity – a badge of honor and a source of pride.

“Our sailors don’t understand it,” an E-9 told Navy Times about the change. “We don’t understand why this could not have been a two- to-three year, very gradual process that examined all of the effects from advancement to recruiting.”

A few leadership lessons should be gleaned from the Navy’s folly:

•When considering a sweeping personnel change, include focus groups of all ranks, not just senior enlisted. Had Navy leaders actually taken the time to discuss the changes with junior enlisted, they could have recognized the kind of firestorm they were about to cause.

•Realize that changing tradition is always going to be met with resistance. If the change is truly needed, leaders must have a clear roll-out plan, with straight-forward guidance for junior leaders. Officials need clear answers to questions like, how this change will affect promotions and the insignia on uniforms.

•Be ready to justify the rule changes. The Navy has largely failed to articulate how removing titles is going to suddenly help careers — these details are still being figured out by a new working group. Lacking them has undermined the Navy’s case for why this drastic change was needed now.

It’s a shame that Mabus took away these time-honored titles so abruptly, marring what is expected to be his last months of service. He’s created a mess and handed it off to the next service secretary to deal with.

The remedy to this fiasco is to reinstate these titles immediately and wait for the results of the career flexibility review, when officials will finally be able to answer the questions on sailors’ minds.

Future military leaders should use this as a case study. Avoid such fiascos at all costs. Challenge your superiors when they propose harebrained ideas. Make sure that sweeping change is done with careful forethought and proper execution.

http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/us-navy-personnel-policy-fiasco
 

Halifax Tar

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I don't get all the hub-bub. 

Its just a "title".  Like "Leading Storekeeper" ect.  So instead you'd be a Leading Seaman who is a Storekeeper. 

What's the issue here ?
 

Lumber

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Halifax Tar said:
I don't get all the hub-bub. 

Its just a "title".  Like "Leading Storekeeper" ect.  So instead you'd be a Leading Seaman who is a Storekeeper. 

What's the issue here ?

Tradition.
 

dimsum

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Lumber said:
Tradition.

Yes, but that shouldn't be the "be-all-end-all" reasoning, if it makes little sense and causes confusion for those outside the service.  For that matter, I worked with a USN sailor who had 4 ratings after his rank - would anyone say something like "Hi, I'm Boatswain/Crypto/Intel/Naval Aircrewman 2nd Class Bloggins"?
 

Lumber

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Dimsum said:
Yes, but that shouldn't be the "be-all-end-all" reasoning, if it makes little sense and causes confusion for those outside the service.  For that matter, I worked with a USN sailor who had 4 ratings after his rank - would anyone say something like "Hi, I'm Boatswain/Crypto/Intel/Naval Aircrewman 2nd Class Bloggins"?

Sorry, I wasn't implying it was the reason for the change, but rather it was the reason for the push-back.
 

dimsum

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So...tradition prevails.

Navy scraps plan to dump job titles amid sailors' complaints

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Navy is scrapping its decision to eliminate dozens of enlisted sailors' job titles, including many that end in "man," after hitting an onslaught of opposition from the force.

The decision to drop long-held traditional titles and instead refer to sailors by their rank was announced in September and signaled a sharp cultural shift for the Navy. Three months later, after hearing persistent complaints and questions from sailors around the world, Navy leaders are going back to the drawing board.

Adm. John Richardson, the chief of naval operations, said in a memo that modernizing the job ratings or titles was designed to give sailors more flexibility in training and assignments. Switching to names more understandable to the civilian world, Navy leaders argued, would make it easier to get jobs once sailors left the service.

But after hearing angry feedback from thousands of sailors, Richardson said Navy leaders believe they can find a way to provide better job flexibility without dropping the titles.

"We have learned from you, and so effective immediately, all rating names are restored," he said.

The memo will be publicly released at 8 a.m. Eastern time Wednesday, and sailors can expect to see correspondence from Navy leaders.

Richardson outlined what he called a "course correction" in the memo, saying the Navy will continue to review ways to update the names.

"Modernizing our industrial-age personnel system in order to provide sailors choice and flexibility still remains a priority for us," he said. "We will need to tackle the issue of managing rating names."

The Navy called for a review of the titles in January, shortly after the Pentagon ordered that all combat jobs would now be open to women. The idea was to eliminate titles such as "chief yeoman," ''corpsman" or "boatswain's mate" — titles steeped in tradition but difficult for the public to translate or understand.

Under the plan, sailors would be known by their ranks, such as petty officer or chief. And job titles would be made more gender-neutral.

Navy Secretary Ray Mabus, who pushed the plan, said at the time that he wanted titles to better convey the job a sailor is doing.

For example, few civilians know what a hospital corpsman does, Mabus said in a June interview. A corpsman could be called a medic or an emergency medical technician, much like "messman" was previously changed to culinary specialist, he added.

Sailors, however, protested the decision, launching a White House petition and gaining some support from Capitol Hill. They said that while they liked the idea of more flexibility, they wanted to hold onto their traditional titles.

It's unclear now whether the move to make titles gender neutral will continue.

Richardson said that sailors who want to provide input can email their ideas to: NavyRatingMod.fct@navy.mil

https://www.yahoo.com/news/navy-scraps-plan-dump-job-titles-amid-sailors-013145356--politics.html?ref=gs
 
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