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US, NATO Outta Afghanistan 2021

Colin Parkinson

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MilEME09

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Another angle, South Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, all collapsed from the west pulling out even though we invested a lot into training. The common theme is corruption. If we fail to stamp it out, all other efforts are doomed to fail.
 

SeaKingTacco

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Another angle, South Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, all collapsed from the west pulling out even though we invested a lot into training. The common theme is corruption. If we fail to stamp it out, all other efforts are doomed to fail.
Stamp out corruption, how?

I hear people say that alot, as if it is self evident.
 

daftandbarmy

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Another angle, South Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, all collapsed from the west pulling out even though we invested a lot into training. The common theme is corruption. If we fail to stamp it out, all other efforts are doomed to fail.

Corruption amongst the 'saviours' or the 'saved'?
 

CBH99

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Stamp out corruption, how?

I hear people say that alot, as if it is self evident.
When dealing with a situation like Afghanistan, or “nation building” - I don’t think we can stamp it out. Not entirely anyway.

If the corruption is happening with officials of the country we are trying to assist, they aren’t subject to our laws. And most of the time it’s politicians & senior security officials pocketing some $$ - can’t see them charging themselves.

If we track every cent, it is cumbersome and slow. Nothing gets done. The more we streamline things, the more open to abuse it becomes.


Corruption is just part of the game when it comes to foreign aid & nation building. We can try to minimize it, but eliminating ir altogether just isn’t going to happen.
 

dimsum

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That is one, epic, bollocking.

That dude did not breathe for like 4 minutes, straight.
Honestly, I bet the Afghans (whoever watches world news at least) saw what happened to US support to Kurds and started making plans to GTFO.
 

OldSolduer

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You would have to get creative with it, it wouldn't be perfect. Perhaps some areas could groups could join their parent country, Ubeckistan for example.
How about this?
Leave the Godforsaken place alone and let them sort it out. Just my two cents.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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Another angle, South Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, all collapsed from the west pulling out even though we invested a lot into training. The common theme is corruption. If we fail to stamp it out, all other efforts are doomed to fail.
No, what we need to do is stop looking at these issues with Western/North American lenses. The US could have very easily maintained a presence in Afghanistan indefinitely, other Countries do it and I have no idea why they didn't? France has maintained a presence in Chad since 1975 and has propped up the Chadian Regime several times. They also have built up and supported the Chadian Army in to a pretty credible and proficient fighting force that doesn't try to be a mirror image of a European Army.

The irony is the Chadian Regime has had similar issues with corruption, coups, etc that Afghanistan has. They have been supported through these though and have provided France with a useful ally in the region.

The Americans are too obsessed with a flawed notion of "winning". Winning in a war like this isn't what Westerners think of as winning.
 

dimsum

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The Americans are too obsessed with a flawed notion of "winning". Winning in a war like this isn't what Westerners think of as winning.
Bingo. That extends to everything - not just war. Risking a tangent, everything is about the act of "winning".

What happens after the winning?

Indiferencia Shrug GIF
 

Kirkhill

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Stamp out corruption, how?

I hear people say that alot, as if it is self evident.

Just the same way we have stamped out corruption here in Canada. Right?

Or is it a case of the social engineers of our society always looking for the next "tabla rasa" on which to create Utopia - convinced that it is possible and that they are the person to do it?
 

CBH99

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Just the same way we have stamped out corruption here in Canada. Right?

Or is it a case of the social engineers of our society always looking for the next "tabla rasa" on which to create Utopia - convinced that it is possible and that they are the person to do it?
Here in Canada, we at least have the option of charging and prosecuting individuals who are involved in corruption - whether it be government officials, or business executives involved in shady/illegal things.

(Unless you happen to work for SNC Lavalin, and are so cozy with the powers at be that you can ask them to change a law so you won’t be charged with illegal activities - and instead of telling you to get the f**k out, actually agrees to it.)

^ In theory, corruption can be & should be handled swiftly if discovered here in Canada. The option is at least there.


Perhaps it’s best we say that anytime large amounts of money are being paid or transferred between parties - especially between government and charity/foreign aid - someone will find a way to pocket something.

Minimizing the best we can should be our goal, as it is realistic and helps guide the ‘how’ we help once we have chosen the ‘who’.

Overall though, it will happen to some extent or another. Especially when that money is going outside of our borders to a country that isn’t accountable to anybody but itself.
 

Kirkhill

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Here in Canada, we at least have the option of charging and prosecuting individuals who are involved in corruption - whether it be government officials, or business executives involved in shady/illegal things.

(Unless you happen to work for SNC Lavalin, and are so cozy with the powers at be that you can ask them to change a law so you won’t be charged with illegal activities - and instead of telling you to get the f**k out, actually agrees to it.)

^ In theory, corruption can be & should be handled swiftly if discovered here in Canada. The option is at least there.


Perhaps it’s best we say that anytime large amounts of money are being paid or transferred between parties - especially between government and charity/foreign aid - someone will find a way to pocket something.

Minimizing the best we can should be our goal, as it is realistic and helps guide the ‘how’ we help once we have chosen the ‘who’.

Overall though, it will happen to some extent or another. Especially when that money is going outside of our borders to a country that isn’t accountable to anybody but itself.

That's one of the reasons I have become a fan of "the 70% solution". A net tendency in the right direction is good enough for me. Perfection isn't worth the aggravation.

In the mean time, from the Wall Street Journal,

When Quinnipiac asked in a May survey, “Should we leave Afghanistan?” 62% of respondents said yes. But what if the question was framed more completely: “Should we leave Afghanistan even if it means an increased threat of terrorism to the homeland?

The “no more endless wars” position has another blind spot: Its advocates are unable to distinguish between wasteful nation building and a small residual force that conducts occasional counterterror operations. As a result, when many Americans hear that there is a single soldier on the ground in Afghanistan, they interpret it to mean “nation building” and “world police.”


And, in the spirit of the perfection of the rear-view mirror

May 6, 202112:27 PM MDT Last Updated 4 months ago

Asia Pacific

Pentagon chief says removal of all contractors from Afghanistan under way​



POLITICS MAY 12, 2021

The U.S. Is Leaving Afghanistan? Tell That to the Contractors.​

American firms capitalize on the withdrawal, moving in with hundreds of new jobs.​




June 6, 2021, 4:00 AM MDT

Without U.S. contractors, the Afghan military will lose its main advantage over the Taliban — air power
The loss of U.S. contractors could trigger a game-changing shift in the military balance between the Taliban and the Afghan government.



Published June 19, 2021 Updated June 29, 2021

Departure of U.S. Contractors Poses Myriad Problems for Afghan Military​

It is not just U.S. troops who are withdrawing from Afghanistan. Thousands of private contractors — who help keep the Afghan Air Force flying, among other tasks — are leaving as well.


Number of Private Contractors in Afghanistan Drops Precipitously as Biden Pushes Withdrawal Plan​

The Biden administration appears to be racing toward a full withdrawal of military support with no clear plan in place for how it will back its local allies against a Taliban onslaught.

By Paul D. Shinkman

July 21, 2021, at 1:31 p.m.


It's one thing to pull out all the troops. It's another thing to hobble the government by cutting all its support.
 

FJAG

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Speaking about corruption - not sure how many of you know this but the US has had an agency conducting reviews of reconstruction activities in Afghanistan called the Office of the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction or SIGAR. One of SIGAR's mandates is the prosecution of war profiteers etc.

Coincidentally with everything going on in Afghanistan at this time, SIGAR has just issued a report of twenty years of lessons learned from Afghanistan reconstruction. It's brutally honest.

An interactive summary of the report is here.

The full report is here.

More than anything else, this report makes it clear that Force 2025 needs to look at two armies: one which is the "just in case" army looking forward and equipped and trained to fight the modern wars of the future that we might very well be engaged in; and one the "everyday" army which is equipped and trained to provide the stabilization and framework for reconstruction efforts that everyone agrees we could do better at and, since we will undoubtedly still deploy on these missions, we need to have for the foreseeable future.

While the former is trained for high-end full-spectrum missions it could still serve a purpose as additional security forces on stabilization missions for short periods. The latter, however, should be organized and focused on being deployed for the long haul.

🍻
 
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Jarnhamar

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There is no winning. Everyone has lost here.
Not being sarcastic when I say this; people who had stock in KBR, DynCorp International, Washington and so on didn't really lose out.

I guess we can argue they might be losing out now because they're losing their golden cows, but they've had 20 years of solid contracts, probably single sourced too.

In 2006 KBR was charging the US Gov over $2 million a day for food alone, just on one base (KAF).
 
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Brad Sallows

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Most corruption can be eliminated by formalizing it, as we have. On the HR side, make new salary = old salary plus bribes. On the customer facing side, call the bribes "fees" and fix the rates.
 

FJAG

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Most corruption can be eliminated by formalizing it, as we have. On the HR side, make new salary = old salary plus bribes. On the customer facing side, call the bribes "fees" and fix the rates.
:giggle: Except in our society the "fees" don't go to salary, they go to the bank's, government offices', telecommunication companies' owner's profit margin in order to increase the executives' year-end bonuses and stock options.

🍻
 
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